Off Topic Paris Attacks !

[Treble]

What muslims can do is inform on anyone they believe to be a danger to society.

Ofcourse, but how many do? and how many don't? If you look at the situation, many families are often unaware of what's going on in the minds of family members embarked on this madness. How often over the last year have we seen parents and grandparents in tears pleading with family members to come back from Syria having discovered they've done the off.

I just think the problems the muslims are facing is no different to anyone in the same situation and most are dealing with it the best they can, and as well as any of us given the situation. There will be a small minority who are complicite but given the numbers, you cant say they represent anywhere enough to start holding the whole muslim community to account.

 

[DirtyFrank]

They are a criminal network pure and simple. The minute you feel the need to associate them with any innocent group of people then you're already creating a them and us situation and alienating people unfairly. What the fck is an average muslim living in his home raising his family going to do to hunt down these terrorists ffs. All they can do is the same as the rest of us, try to educate their kids the best they can. And if they feel aggrieved about something, feel comfortable enough to discuss how to tackle it within the democratic process they live in and the freedoms they enjoy. Simples.

All true, but many many Muslims have stated that not enough is done within the community to speak out and isolate those with extreme views. There has been a reluctance by community and religious leaders to condemn the violence, to state categorically that the rule of law takes precendent over religious law (whichever version of it is spouted)

I personally am not lumping all Muslims into one pot (other than I reject the logic of all religions when applied to the real world)

But....Religions, like any other ideology have a resonsibility to denounce those that twist it and cooperate with authorities to stop those that break the law in their name.

And you are right..creating a "them and us" atmosphere is not conducive to that but cooperation is a two way street and to deny that not enough has been done by the community in question is no more helpful than saying "all muslims are bad"

 

[Tobes]

An actual Muslim has issues with your train of thought.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...re-defining-Islam.-We-Muslims-must-react.html

Like here during the troubles when mainstream or "moderates" say nothing or say it too quietly in fear of being "traitors to their faith" they are allowing the extremists to define and voice their version of their religion loudest of all.

I'm sorry but Islam is where Christianity once was...it needs to catch up with the century it now lives in and while I don't expect them to take up arms against the extremists they need to stop them subverting and taking control of their identity.

You can not hide in a community that does not want you.

^ this

The problem with driving change within Islam is that there's no structure within the religion. Any crank can set himself up as a cleric and there's no collective view on how to interpret the Quran. There's therefore segmentation within the religion and a vast spectrum of opinion from the moderate to the uber extreme.

All local communities can do is to educate their own and ensure that the radical preachers of hate are shunned

 

[Treble]

What a stupid analogy. The BNPs existence is a stain on our society as they also peddle hate, but I don't remember them suicide bombing innocent bystanders.

The mere act of a suicide bomber is intrinsicly linked to their religion, as they're sold the idea that post the event they'll be rewarded on the other side.

Too high brow for me? Hahaha, the usual mo from you, some jumped up dept head who thinks the world revolves around his public sector ring piece. You continually try and portray yourself as being intellectually superior, trust me fella, you simply aren't.

your desire to be seen as PC on all subjects is nauseating

There you go again. Suicide is considered a major sin in islam. But dont let the facts get in the way of your ignorance. Do you know anything about the religion or people asides of the drivvle you read in the Daily Mail?

It's absolutely the same. Your post above is no different to someone saying the BNP believes this country is for Whites only bcos that's what Britain stands for. Complete nonsense.

 

[DirtyFrank]

^ this

The problem with driving change within Islam is that there's no structure within the religion. Any crank can set himself up as a cleric and there's no collective view on how to interpret the Quran. There's therefore segmentation within the religion and a vast spectrum of opinion from the moderate to the uber extreme.

All local communities can do is to educate their own and ensure that the radical preachers of hate are shunned

Yep. I am not a Muslim but what is to stop the Imam from the moderate mosque getting his "congregation??" Together and march them down to demonstrate outside the building the nutters are calling a mosque? A very publuc demonstration that the community is aware of what the nutters are doing and that they do not like it?

How many sons and daughters will try sneaking in to listen if they know the entire friends and family will be standing outside watching them.

This is the kind of action taken by moderate christians against that Westboro church. They turn up to block or coubter demonstrate against them turning up at funerals etc...

Its not much but its a powerful display of "not in our name"!

 

[Treble]

All true, but many many Muslims have stated that not enough is done within the community to speak out and isolate those with extreme views. There has been a reluctance by community and religious leaders to condemn the violence, to state categorically that the rule of law takes precendent over religious law (whichever version of it is spouted)

I personally am not lumping all Muslims into one pot (other than I reject the logic of all religions when applied to the real world)

But....Religions, like any other ideology have a resonsibility to denounce those that twist it and cooperate with authorities to stop those that break the law in their name.

And you are right..creating a "them and us" atmosphere is not conducive to that but cooperation is a two way street and to deny that not enough has been done by the community in question is no more helpful than saying "all muslims are bad"

But this seems to be more anecdotal than reality. There is considerable cooperation between the muslim community and the wider community including law enforcement. The amount of foiled plots in this country will have included such cooperation but bcos we dont hear about it, ppl like to believe they're doing nothing.

Also there are senior muslim clerics who have worked with our government on policy and some have publicly said their opinions werent considered. Many ended up leaving such committees but continue to work at a local level.

Finally, there is a lot of work happening between schools and mosques and inter-faith events to promote British values. The problem is, this isnt sensational journalism. So while 99% of the muslim community is doing the best they can, the 1% of the lunatic preachers are getting all the air time. The thing is though, they are no different to EDL or the BNP. I'd rather they were out in the open and monitored and destroyed in their ideology...which will happen provided we dont go around helping them by bombing the occasional wedding party in Tibruk.

 

[DirtyFrank]

As for the BNP comparison..The normal "white" community challenges them publicly all the time! The mainstream media mocks them without fear of being shot by angry BNP members. Its a bad comparison I'm afraid.

Same with the EDF marches etc...people turn up to state categorically that they aren't the "white voice". They do not speak for us etc...

 

[DirtyFrank]

But this seems to be more anecdotal than reality. There is considerable cooperation between the muslim community and the wider community including law enforcement. The amount of foiled plots in this country will have included such cooperation but bcos we dont hear about it, ppl like to believe they're doing nothing.

Also there are senior muslim clerics who have worked with our government on policy and some have publicly said their opinions werent considered. Many ended up leaving such committees but continue to work at a local level.

Finally, there is a lot of work happening between schools and mosques and inter-faith events to promote British values. The problem is, this isnt sensational journalism. So while 99% of the muslim community is doing the best they can, the 1% of the lunatic preachers are getting all the air time. The thing is though, they are no different to EDL or the BNP. I'd rather they were out in the open and monitored and destroyed in their ideology...which will happen provided we dont go around helping them by bombing the occasional wedding party in Tibruk.

It is ancedotal because I can not be arsed to go back over ten years to find the comments and statements of Muslims who have claimed what I said. The piece I linked to is not the first I have read.

And since you have not referenced evidence either in your post above I can claim the same can I not?

Instead I will accept of course that work is done in the communities..I never believed otherwise. As you say, our information to foil plots has to have come from somewhere more than phone or internet intercepts.

But do you accept that if there are a significant number of people within the community saying not enough is being done then maybe they are in a more knowledgable position than you or I to claim that?

 

[Treble]

As for the BNP comparison..The normal "white" community challenges them publicly all the time! The mainstream media mocks them without fear of being shot by angry BNP members. Its a bad comparison I'm afraid.

Same with the EDF marches etc...people turn up to state categorically that they aren't the "white voice". They do not speak for us etc...

It's a perfectly good comparison to the point Tobes was making. To say that ISIS represents any part of Islam or muslims simply because it has "Islamic" in their title is as stupid as saying the BNP represents Britain or the British bcos they have that in their title.

His next defence about suicide bombers proving it represents islam was equally stupid, as suicide is a major sin in islam.

Your point btw is a valid one but the last time their was a counter demonstration to EDL or BNP many on here comdemned them for trying to stoke trouble. Although I think you're right in that muslims as part of a multi-racial march against terrorism would be a good thing. Except that, it has happened already tbf. Maybe not enough.

 

[Tobes]

There you go again. Suicide is considered a major sin in islam. But dont let the facts get in the way of your ignorance. Do you know anything about the religion or people asides of the drivvle you read in the Daily Mail?

It's absolutely the same. Your post above is no different to someone saying the BNP believes this country is for Whites only bcos that's what Britain stands for. Complete nonsense.

It isn't the same at all, the BNP are jeering within the white community and the plastic nazis were marched out of Liverpool the other month by the community themselves.

This is all that the sensible non PC obsessed person would want from the Muslim community with regards to the extremists that operate under the name of their religion.

Not in my name....

Keep on spouting your apologist PC tripe though and chucking around accusations of racism in the process.

 

[DirtyFrank]

It's a perfectly good comparison to the point Tobes was making. To say that ISIS represents any part of Islam or muslims simply because it has "Islamic" in their title is as stupid as saying the BNP represents Britain or the British bcos they have that in their title.

His next defence about suicide bombers proving it represents islam was equally stupid, as suicide is a major sin in islam.

Your point btw is a valid one but the last time their was a counter demonstration to EDL or BNP many on here comdemned them for trying to stoke trouble. Although I think you're right in that muslims as part of a multi-racial march against terrorism would be a good thing. Except that, it has happened already tbf. Maybe not enough.

I remember different...i thought we applauded the fact (in Liverpool) that the city forced the EDL march to implode...maybe I don't remember the full discussion tbf.

I have no probs joining a multicultural march but I honestly think it risks the accusation that it is driven by those outside the community. I believe it would be a more powerful message if it was made up largely by the Muslim community.

It would also steal what little thunder the likes of the BNP have left.

 

[Treble]

It is ancedotal because I can not be arsed to go back over ten years to find the comments and statements of Muslims who have claimed what I said. The piece I linked to is not the first I have read.

And since you have not referenced evidence either in your post above I can claim the same can I not?

Instead I will accept of course that work is done in the communities..I never believed otherwise. As you say, our information to foil plots has to have come from somewhere more than phone or internet intercepts.

But do you accept that if there are a significant number of people within the community saying not enough is being done then maybe they are in a more knowledgable position than you or I to claim that?

I think that everyone holds an opinion. Why shouldn't the range of muslim opinion be any different to the rest of ours. I know plenty of muslims who believe our foreign policy is having a detrimental affect on the situation and that our government is culpible and should do more to stop fuelling the situation. Seeing as many having first hand knowledge of this, they clearly are more knowledgable. I think that will probably do more to tackle extremism than a march tbh. Although both would be ideal.

 

[HugoEkitikeN01]

Jihad ,Sharia, are related to Islam, If IS a faction of Islam that is not recognised by other Muslim is another thing. Syria president
was supporting them until they are planning to overthrow him. Sadly to say that Islam has been associated with violence for
too long.

 

[Tobes]

It's a perfectly good comparison to the point Tobes was making. To say that ISIS represents any part of Islam or muslims simply because it has "Islamic" in their title is as stupid as saying the BNP represents Britain or the British bcos they have that in their title.

His next defence about suicide bombers proving it represents islam was equally stupid, as suicide is a major sin in islam.

Your point btw is a valid one but the last time their was a counter demonstration to EDL or BNP many on here comdemned them for trying to stoke trouble. Although I think you're right in that muslims as part of a multi-racial march against terrorism would be a good thing. Except that, it has happened already tbf. Maybe not enough.

The fact that it's viewed as a sin within mainstream Islam is irrelevant to the simple fact that they're indoctrinated to believe that on the other side they'll be rewarded for their jihadist sacrifice. So a proportion of Muslims don't believe that it's a sin, as they're doing what they do in the name of the prophet.

You're merely being obtuse and trying to deny the ****ing obvious.

 

[HugoEkitikeN01]

Salman Rushdie wrote a book "Satanic Verses", Muslims all over the world wanted to kill him for it. How many times books and films that
are not favourable to Christians had been in the market? Christians never called for the heads of authors or actors. Islam is all about
"violence".

 

[DirtyFrank]

I think that everyone holds an opinion. Why shouldn't the range of muslim opinion be any different to the rest of ours. I know plenty of muslims who believe our foreign policy is having a detrimental affect on the situation and that our government is culpible and should do more to stop fuelling the situation. Seeing as many having first hand knowledge of this, they clearly are more knowledgable. I think that will probably do more to tackle extremism than a march tbh. Although both would be ideal.

Oh I agree that our countries actions in the middle east have created this situation. And many people of all ethnicities have denounced that action and marched against it. But it is done with the idea that you belong to the country in question. We do not go off to fight with the Iraqis against our own nation.

And that is a continuing issue. The idea that many (not all) see this as an attack on their religion when our govt plays its games in the middle east rather than state polticking. That because it is a "muslim" state that we attacked then we are attacking muslims rather than the state.

The idea that they live in our state but feel more loyalty to another because it is run by muslims...I understand that many within the community came from these states or their fathers or mothers did. Christians stopped putting religion before state a few hundred years ago!

I personally believe that if you want to live in a state it has to become your own. By all means work the systems provided for change but dont view the very state you live in as the enemy.

I mean I wouldn't move to Iran because I am opposed to its political beliefs and the influence one religion has on the lives of all.

But i have no sympathy for ex pats that move to say Saudi and then whinge when they get jailed for breaking their laws.

Do you think the Saudis would listen if I said "oh but its part of my real culture to drink and have PDA's with women: you should make special allowances for me!"

 

[DirtyFrank]

Salman Rushdie wrote a book "Satanic Verses", Muslims all over the world wanted to kill him for it. How many times books and films that
are not favourable to Christians had been in the market? Christians never called for the heads of authors or actors. Islam is all about
"violence".

They used to lol..and that is what I mean when I say Islam needs to get in the right century. That non violent acts of mockery and criticism of their religion does not justify violence.

And before someone says its only extremists that act that way. Tell it to the girls in india and pakistan. It might have been the village nutter who raped or stoned them on the basis they disrespected the religion but the normal muslims stood by and did nothing..if they are the majority it should be fairly easy to stop the nutter acting..the baying crowd suggests otherwise.

 

[DirtyFrank]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-is-so-profoundly-disconcerting-10070358.html
I knew i had read something fairly recently.

In interest of balance. Both Bush and Blair cited their christian beliefs as a driving force behind their decision making.....

 

[Page_Moss_Kopite]

The French President said yesterday's attacks were an "act of war", if the French decide to put troops on the ground and use all the weaponry at their disposal(barring of course nukes)Isis-Isil will be annihilated in a way they would like to anihilate us, whether we agree with violence or not the extremists are pushing western nations into a corner and sooner rather than later there will be the backlash on their "caliphate" that they richly deserve.
Innocent moderate Muslims in Europe will feel the backlash sadly but they have a chance to prevent it by standing up to the extremists within their communities without fear and giving vital information about terrorist activity to their respective governments, the right wing will only grow stronger in the west with every act of terrorism and that is bad news for decent law abiding Muslim citizens in what ever nation they were born or where they live.

 

[HugoEkitikeN01]

Both Bush and Blair cited their christian beliefs as a driving force behind their decision making.....

When was the last time Blair or Bush read the Bible last?. They cannot hide behind Christian beliefs for their murderous acts,

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