Panorama - Monday 19th
- Thread starter NassauBoard
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It isn't often I disagree with you Ron, but I have to on this.
I've just seen some footage in a trailer for the programme, and frankly if this sort of thing is happening, it needs stopping. I do realise that the programme makers and the animal activists behind it are committed to ending horse racing, and none of us wants that, but activities like this being uncovered does no favours for horse racing fans with the general population.
So it may be distressing viewing, but it is information that we should probably have, in order to reach a reasoned viewpoint about this topic
I've just seen some footage in a trailer for the programme, and frankly if this sort of thing is happening, it needs stopping. I do realise that the programme makers and the animal activists behind it are committed to ending horse racing, and none of us wants that, but activities like this being uncovered does no favours for horse racing fans with the general population.
So it may be distressing viewing, but it is information that we should probably have, in order to reach a reasoned viewpoint about this topic
Exactly
WTF to people expect to happen to horses...They all live happily ever after on their owners farms and have nice statues and headstones erected when they move on to horsey heaven.
Thoroughbred horses aren't bred for meat, you don't expect them to end up in abattoirs. The ones with injuries & life limiting factors are likely to be put down, but in abattoirs? I would be very surprised if it was a widespread thing in UK racing, but it seems that it does happen.
This is pretty much my view on it. Racing can't go down the "what about" route of saying the sport is better than the meat industry etc. If there is a problem then it needs finding and solving.
If they're being mistreated or killed inhumanely then i can understand the fuss but if people are upset just because they're ending up in abattoirs then i really don't see the problem. They might not be bred for meat but if they can be used for meat then i really don't see a problem with that.
Surprised by some of the reactions on here. All horses have a value and for many many years horses have been sold at sales across the whole of the UK with the bottom line being that there is a price that the “knacker man” will pay. If you through many sales results you will see horses being sold for 800 guineas often purchased by the same buyer if not for CASH.
These horses will be being shipped off to abattoirs and euthanised either to end up for human or animal consumption. I am no expert but I also think that there are a number of other bi products that certain horse parts are used for. It’s been going on as long as I can remember and it is not just racehorses that end up in this predicament.
The bottom line in all this is that it is only news because it can used as a tool to have another pop at the racing industry.
These horses will be being shipped off to abattoirs and euthanised either to end up for human or animal consumption. I am no expert but I also think that there are a number of other bi products that certain horse parts are used for. It’s been going on as long as I can remember and it is not just racehorses that end up in this predicament.
The bottom line in all this is that it is only news because it can used as a tool to have another pop at the racing industry.
The market for horse meat is huge though Nass and to be honest if racing wants to take the problem seriously then maybe it needs to stop over-breeding or better still have a licensing system in place to address the issue.
Huge? In the UK? Why are Irish connections sending them to the UK?
agree with both of the points you’ve made in regards breeding and licensing,
Watched it. Lots you could say about motivation of the programme makers but demise of Vyta Du Roc really got to me. Grade 2 winner over hurdles and fences. Reynoldstown winner, 4th in the Neptune. Yet just 2 years after winning at the Cheltenham New Year’s Day meeting is being shot for meat. Owned by multi millionaires and trained during his racing career by Hendo and Elliott, 2 of the best trainers in GB and Ireland. That’s horrendous for the sport.
What was wrong, and there was a lot was disgusting. The abattoir found out should have all its licences inspected and revoked if necessary. Just as people who hand over their rubbish to fly tippers should be sanctioned, so should the fly tippers. Pre-programme many trainers were tweeting pictures of their retirees.
But agree with Stick that it's a bit naive to think a lot of horses don't go to the knackers yard every year or be surprised by it. There are about 11,000 foals born every year. It's too many. When those horses that are injured, untrainable and surplus to requirements are put-down it should certainly be done humanely. No tolerance should be made for inhumane treatment of horses.
That eedjjit clown Elliott should have got a 5 year ban, not a slap on the wrist. But don't let these Animal Aid people have the narrative.
But agree with Stick that it's a bit naive to think a lot of horses don't go to the knackers yard every year or be surprised by it. There are about 11,000 foals born every year. It's too many. When those horses that are injured, untrainable and surplus to requirements are put-down it should certainly be done humanely. No tolerance should be made for inhumane treatment of horses.
That eedjjit clown Elliott should have got a 5 year ban, not a slap on the wrist. But don't let these Animal Aid people have the narrative.
yeah mate , shows the real compassion of so called corporate owners , but really , the treat people just the same , only when they are of any use to them are they feted , but once that no longer is the case , scrap em .......
Agree with the lads on a load of the points made, but from a programming point of view they only picked up on the one abattoir, not that i wanted them to pick up on 100's of em, and mostly from Elliotts yard and mostly an Irish issue. It barely scratched the surface of who is doing and saying what in terms of moving the horses on and so leaves many questions still to be answered... However, the abattoir that was shown to be carrying out the inhumane killings of the horses and the veterinary people on site checking their work need further investigation, as it just looks a dodgy set up from the start that one.
Also we must be able to live and work a system that promotes the after life of a horse once it's passed it's worth, if that's the right way of putting it, to an owner and breeder and the of the horses racing life. I know twitter was going mental yesterday showing pictures of retired horses enjoying a great life out in the fields etc but that needs to be promoted more, something i bet ITV will pick up on and show on a weekend show sometime soon...
It will be interesting to see how the Racing industry reacts to this and the counter promotion of animal well fare...
Also we must be able to live and work a system that promotes the after life of a horse once it's passed it's worth, if that's the right way of putting it, to an owner and breeder and the of the horses racing life. I know twitter was going mental yesterday showing pictures of retired horses enjoying a great life out in the fields etc but that needs to be promoted more, something i bet ITV will pick up on and show on a weekend show sometime soon...
It will be interesting to see how the Racing industry reacts to this and the counter promotion of animal well fare...
I wasn't expecting what I saw in the 30 minute programme, with a few points that really stuck out for me, but what I was expecting was the mistreatment of animals at a slaughterhouse/abattoir. I think everyone who eats meat knows that in an industry that kills animals you are going to have people acting poorly and probably illegally.
In terms of the abattoir section, what surprised me was the onsite vet and the apparent lack of judgment on their behalf, especially with lame and clearly injured and distressed animals going to slaughter. It to me suggested that this was a tip of the iceberg scenario in the killing of animals.
In terms of racing, I was very surprised by the numbers of horses being transported to the UK for slaughter, it wasn't explained to the audience why this was, and I would like to understand more about why they weren't slaughtered in Ireland and why the UK was chosen for this.
I was surprised that they found as many horses that had false documents (40 I believe they stated) including those of a horse who died at a racecourse. Clearly the illegal criminal element is at work here and it is more than just rogue elements. I want to see racing change the way passports work and I want to understand how the criminals got the chips from dead horses and who implanted them in the horses for slaughter.
I want to know who the horse dealer was that sent so many horses to slaughter, who he works with in the industry and how many horses each stable has sent to slaughter. I also want to know why the Irish authorities haven't picked up on the high death rates of horses owned by Gigginstown and whether any autopsies have been done on their horses. 17% death rate for those horses seem extraordinarily high, and that is without looking at if any have been to slaughterhouses.
I also want to know who the rider was that Munir and Soeude gave their Cheltenham winning horse to, and how on earth that horse ended up at an abattoir. If this is someone linked to the stable in Ireland and probably the same dealer, then we need to know this and we need those big owners to come out and give public statements.
Racing needs to react to this quickly, professionally and without making excuses. It needs a frank and honest debate and it needs regulation changes. If Irish racing doesn't change on this too, then the BHA & UK Government should stop Irish runners in the UK.
In terms of the abattoir section, what surprised me was the onsite vet and the apparent lack of judgment on their behalf, especially with lame and clearly injured and distressed animals going to slaughter. It to me suggested that this was a tip of the iceberg scenario in the killing of animals.
In terms of racing, I was very surprised by the numbers of horses being transported to the UK for slaughter, it wasn't explained to the audience why this was, and I would like to understand more about why they weren't slaughtered in Ireland and why the UK was chosen for this.
I was surprised that they found as many horses that had false documents (40 I believe they stated) including those of a horse who died at a racecourse. Clearly the illegal criminal element is at work here and it is more than just rogue elements. I want to see racing change the way passports work and I want to understand how the criminals got the chips from dead horses and who implanted them in the horses for slaughter.
I want to know who the horse dealer was that sent so many horses to slaughter, who he works with in the industry and how many horses each stable has sent to slaughter. I also want to know why the Irish authorities haven't picked up on the high death rates of horses owned by Gigginstown and whether any autopsies have been done on their horses. 17% death rate for those horses seem extraordinarily high, and that is without looking at if any have been to slaughterhouses.
I also want to know who the rider was that Munir and Soeude gave their Cheltenham winning horse to, and how on earth that horse ended up at an abattoir. If this is someone linked to the stable in Ireland and probably the same dealer, then we need to know this and we need those big owners to come out and give public statements.
Racing needs to react to this quickly, professionally and without making excuses. It needs a frank and honest debate and it needs regulation changes. If Irish racing doesn't change on this too, then the BHA & UK Government should stop Irish runners in the UK.
Agree with everything you've said there Nass but, as you also said, does any of this really surprise us? Given that horse meat is eaten in many countries world-wide, why should we expect the treatment of horses sent for slaughter to be any different to that of pigs, cows, chickens? I realise there has long been added sensitivity in the UK around the consumption of horse meat but Muslims are equally appalled at the thought of pork, and Hindus at the thought of beef.
The wider issue here really is animal welfare and respect for animals. A couple of examples from Germany which have caused much debate recently - firstly, only in January of this year was it made illegal to castrate young pigs without anaesthetic (they are castrated to make their meat taste less "piggy"). The law was introduced after years of angry protests by campaigners. Secondly, legislation introduced only in May this year forbids the killing of male chicks directly after birth. This was done for "economical" reasons as the male chicks have no value to food producers (they don't lay eggs and don't grow big, meaty breasts). Basically, as the chicks hatched out of their eggs, they were inspected and, if male, thrown directly into an industrial shredder. Both of these practices would have continued unchecked had it not been for similar undercover documentaries and subsequent protests.
Encouragingly, we also have legislation in Germany which forces supermarkets to clearly identify how the animal was kept before being slaughtered to provide the meat you buy. This ranges from 4 (organic) down to 1 (mass production) and Aldi have recently announced they will gradually phase out production methods 1 and 2 from the offering - albeit not until 2030.
As we are all fans of horse racing, the programme maybe strikes a different chord than, say, thinking about how the pig which provided the bacon for our bacon sandwich was treated (both in life and during death) but in reality, they are all animals and all deserve to be treated with respect. So whether its Frankel or Freddy the pig we are talking about, same rules must apply.
The wider issue here really is animal welfare and respect for animals. A couple of examples from Germany which have caused much debate recently - firstly, only in January of this year was it made illegal to castrate young pigs without anaesthetic (they are castrated to make their meat taste less "piggy"). The law was introduced after years of angry protests by campaigners. Secondly, legislation introduced only in May this year forbids the killing of male chicks directly after birth. This was done for "economical" reasons as the male chicks have no value to food producers (they don't lay eggs and don't grow big, meaty breasts). Basically, as the chicks hatched out of their eggs, they were inspected and, if male, thrown directly into an industrial shredder. Both of these practices would have continued unchecked had it not been for similar undercover documentaries and subsequent protests.
Encouragingly, we also have legislation in Germany which forces supermarkets to clearly identify how the animal was kept before being slaughtered to provide the meat you buy. This ranges from 4 (organic) down to 1 (mass production) and Aldi have recently announced they will gradually phase out production methods 1 and 2 from the offering - albeit not until 2030.
As we are all fans of horse racing, the programme maybe strikes a different chord than, say, thinking about how the pig which provided the bacon for our bacon sandwich was treated (both in life and during death) but in reality, they are all animals and all deserve to be treated with respect. So whether its Frankel or Freddy the pig we are talking about, same rules must apply.
See it does surprise me, I get that horse meat is worth money globally and I don't have an issue with horses being eaten, but I am very surprised by the number and the major industry behind the death of thoroughbred racehorses at abattoirs. Perhaps this is because I am not Irish and haven't been involved in Irish racing, but every yard i've been to and every horse I've been involved in has been rehomed post racing. The horses have all fortunately ended their career being sound, but if any trainer/syndicate owner had suggested selling the horses to a trader without knowing their final home I would have been shocked and upset.
I shared the story of Project Mars and his retirement last month, the fact that our trainer and yard did due diligence on where he was going was very important, and to be honest I expected exactly the same from all trainers. Apparently it isn't the case.
Seemed to be a bit of finger pointing at the Irish trainers like Elliott/Cromwell, but you would have to be very naive to think the UK based handlers are much different.
But at the end of the day its down to the owners to ensure their pride and joy who has more than likely already cost them a small fortune has a nice retirement or a dignified death
But at the end of the day its down to the owners to ensure their pride and joy who has more than likely already cost them a small fortune has a nice retirement or a dignified death
The reason that horses are being shipped to Britain to be killed is because there only two abattoirs in Ireland that deal with horses. One concerning thing is that due to Brexit and the collapse of the Tripartite agreement, there’s no merit in shipping horses to Britain for slaughter as the paperwork and cost involved has tripled since 1st January and it would cost more than the value of the meat.
that worries me enormously as to what is happening to those horses in Ireland that would have been shipped previously. Unfortunately the IHRB have next to no welfare policies - there’s no industry supported organisations like ROR and no real policies in place re traceability.
that worries me enormously as to what is happening to those horses in Ireland that would have been shipped previously. Unfortunately the IHRB have next to no welfare policies - there’s no industry supported organisations like ROR and no real policies in place re traceability.
See, we have found one positive with Brexit!! Irish racing does seem to have its fair share of issues at the moment, I guess this is down to the IHRB as much as the industry itself.
PNkt from an industry point of view, does this seem to be solely an Irish racing issue? Or are we also seeing a good number of thoroughbreds going to abattoir from UK racing?