It seems monstrous that we can allow euthanasia for an animal but not a person. My grandfather was placed on the Liverpool Care Pathway, without the family's consent or our even being advised until after he passed. My last memories of my grandfather are of the awful, horrific suffering he went through, all unnecessary. I cannot go into great detail as it was hugely traumatic and I still struggle with the memory of events eight years on. The LPC was a shocking and barbaric practise, Dignitas would have been far kinder.
A great discussion with many powerful points. I will state now that I'm not in favour of the death penalty. I also feel for those that have been close to these community shattering cases. For me, the key points are that most in favour are coming from a highly passionate standpoint - the key to the justice system is to try to remain detached to maintain a clear view. The overall discussion on the subject needs to be based around long term benefits to society rather than the consequences to specific cases. Very difficult to do for those involved in the specific cases and all these should still be taken into account. As with all science, forensics have improved massively but today's certainties are tomorrow's mistakes. Uber (who once again seems to have facilitated a thoughtful debate) has made a point about armed police performing execution without trial. I agree that this is an issue, but should be tackled in isolation. That in itself should carry little weight with regards to the merit of capital punishment (best analogy I can conjure is, you're about to hit a brick wall and you hope that it's soft on the other side of said wall). For the extreme criminals, death and killing have possible got desensitised and I feel that state endorsed killing may lead to a desensitisation of death to society (in terms of the act of killing for whatever reason) - certainly we'd start with irrefutable murderers but then, with our appetite for "justice" sated, surely there'd be a gradual move towards rape and other brutal crimes being treated in the same way (all with diminishing degrees of absolute certainty). For me, it's crucial that there is a true sense of justice - life is life for example. I've always stated that prison should ensure that a level of solitary confinement means perpetrators of any crime have the time to truly consider the reasons for their incarceration. If at any time, the death penalty can be proven to have a beneficial impact on wider society and the onus of execution can be distanced from one specific person, then I might reconsider (doubtful from my current position though). Oh, and I'm a liberal who has been mugged without justice (the kid they caught who was one of the gang had blood from my head on his shoes but they couldn't prove he'd actually kicked me).
SB - Possibly ironically given my stance on capital punishment, I agree that the option to end the life of yourself should be a right. From a personal viewpoint, I've found the mental health system to be severely lacking (funding, being disjointed and inconsistent / unprofessional take on issues). Allowing people to choose to end their life, with suitable help and a reasonable length of "cooling off period" would actually bring many hidden / untreated issues to the fore. While never entirely removing the trauma for those around, it would allow for some understanding of what's about to happen and encourage discussion rather than more dramatic, abrupt actions that sadly happen now.
To summarise (please accept my apologies for doing so), the general theme that has shown itself in this thread is that the punishment should fit the crime. Our prison system appears to be far too lenient. Death penalty aside, prisons should be a place of punishment and were possible, rehabilitation. This country's infrastructure is in a poor state and there is a lack of investment in it. I have long believed that criminals should be forced to repay their debt to society by being put to work on repairing that infrastructure. We have a workforce of 6 million for heavens sake!
Both my parents passed away in the aptly-named Mayday Hospital in Croydon. Their last days were traumatic for all concerned and I wouldn't wish their suffering on my worst enemy. It deeply affected me at the time, the feeling of helplessness seeing people you love descending into such an undignified and painful end. My father never recovered after my mother died and his last three years were spent telling anyone who would listen that he wanted to be with her as soon as possible, which coming from a man in his late 90s who had always been so independent and assured was hard to take, but love him as I did, if he had asked me to I would have 'assisted' him, it would have spared him so much hurt and pain...
The Pakistan courts are funnier than ours http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-26887186 Pakistan: Nine-month-old boy accused of planning murder A nine-month-old boy has appeared in court in Pakistan on charges of planning a murder, threatening police and interfering in state affairs, it appears. Baby Muhammad Mosa Khan is one of more than 30 people facing charges after a police raid to catch suspected gas thieves in the city of Lahore, The News website reports. Police say the suspects tried to murder security officers by pelting them with stones. But the Times of India newspaper quotes the infant's father as saying the group was protesting against an electricity shortage. The infant appeared in the courtroom sitting on his father's lap and clasping a bottle. He was given bail and the case has been adjourned until 12 April, reports from Lahore say. His father is also among the accused. The murder charges against a baby have alarmed Punjab's Chief Minister Muhammad Shahbaz Sharif. He has asked for clarification from the province's inspector-general of police and demanded "stern action" against the officials who registered the case. The assistant superintendent who filed the charges has subsequently been suspended, The Nation website says.
On euthanasia... I was once of the opinion that nobody should have the right to choose when to end their life. I cannot sufficiently explain why, particularly as this point of view is arguably at odds with my stance on the death penalty. My position changed over a fairly long period time, possibly as a result of something akin to the "mugged liberal" effect. For instance... Mrs Uber sadly lost her father to vascular dementia nearly two weeks ago; a cruel, indiscriminate and remorseless disease that has caused the family much distress, particularly because you feel so impotent, forced to stand at the wings whilst a loved one is taken from you bit by bit. You ask yourself two questions: Under similar circumstances would (1) I want my loved ones to have to witness and endure a similar decline in me, and (2) given a choice would I choose a different ending to my story than something as horrible as this? Without doubt it's a "no" and a "yes". How could I possibly choose anything different? I neither want to be a burden on my family during such a period, nor would I wish their memories of me to be tarnished by the emptying shell I'd become. I don't want to experience the frustration and. humiliation that goes with my decline either. In no way would I criticise my late father-in-law for his ending; he neither had the options, nor the means or knowledge to choose otherwise. Anyway, the important thing here is that an individual has, whilst he or she can, the choice to determine their path. There is no right or wrong answer; the only right is that a choice is available. My heart goes out to anybody experiencing similar circumstances.
and this:- Pakistani couple get death sentences for blasphemy A Pakistani Christian couple have been sentenced to death for blasphemy after allegedly sending a text message insulting the Prophet Muhammad. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26901433 The couple, named as Shafqat Emmanuel and Shagufta Kausar, were found guilty of sending the text message to the imam of their local mosque. Allegations of blasphemy against Islam are taken very seriously in Pakistan. Several recent cases have prompted international concern about the application of blasphemy laws. The imam brought a complaint against the couple last July.
Looks like high agreement on those cases which are clearly end of life. My own Dad had a completely pointless final 10 days after a brain haemorrhage. He was clearly not going to recover at all, those of us who loved him knew he would not want to semi recover - be unable to talk clearly or move - but the hideous Liverpool Pathway (essentially starvation/dehydration) is the only current option in this country, when a dose of barbituates/morphine could easily have sorted it very quickly. The solace is that he was mentally fine (though physically increasingly fragile) until the haemorrhage, was unconscious after it and 10 days was a tiny proportion of his 76 years. I'm equally interested in those people who aren't facing death though - long term degenerative disease, pain with no prospect of relief, simply (in the cold light of day) having had enough. Like the lady who went to Dignitas.
Yesterday after learning of the disappointment at Bournemouth, I managed to get quite ill. Mrs Maple drove me over to the local hospital ER (I believe equivalent to an A & E in the UK). I was examined for what I had prevviously been told I was up against and learning that was an error in diagnosis, I was treated to an ultrasound. I am home now, though likely to be back up there tomorrow but while being ultrasounded I had some ideas like what if they discover tumours in my pancreas - terminal cancer so far as I know. I may not have been facing death directly but my own mortality was a bit front and centre. I have long felt that regardless of hat pain I may have to endure I would hold on in the hope that tomorrow or the day after a major breakthrough that would help me recover would be announced. But come and ask me again is 15 years - my opinions are apt to change in the face of what is yet to come
All the best with this Maple. Often these things really are just scares - 18 months ago my family doctor heavily hinted that he thought I had bladder cancer and explicitly ruled out what I knew I had - kidney stones.
Thank you. Last night's ultrasound was a little unspecific as the ER attending physician said that he hadn't been trained to recognize conditions on ultrasound except internal bleeding and pregnancy (I'm not - too old and gender challenged). They referred me to my family phyisician which I will try to do toomorrow - if I can't (a very busy practice and they may be booked solid) then I will need to return to the hospital for a better ultrasound. For the record, if it is as the doc suggested, this looks like the usually relatively minor gall stones. But wow, they are really unpleasant when they get assertive down there
Good friend of mine has had problems with gallstones. They may give you dietary advice and if the attacks don't go away whip your gall bladder out, give you some supplements to replace whatever it is that the gall bladder does, but its routine stuff mate.
It seems to me to be self evident that individuals should be free to choose how and when their lives end, and to enlist help should they be unable act for themselves. What justification can there be for the High Court ruling against poor Tony Nicklinson, suffering from locked-in syndrome and just wanting his torture to end? The law should be changed.
