Death penalty does not work. Imagine if it were re-instated. The handful of cases would each cause a media circus. The lunatic extremists would be in utopia with all the additional publicity, with their publicised martyrdom. The convicted would be on death row for years whilst the taxpayer forked out for appeal after appeal after re-trial after judicial review, each case costing millions in legals. The costs amounting to substantially more than merely keeping them imprisoned for life. Remember, our Sec of State could not even deport Abu Hamza! Far better that a life sentence, truly mean life. No prospect of parole. That prison be unpleasant, no TV, no luxuries. That alternative would be worse than death for most. Also, whilst we are paying for their keep, why not put some of our 250,000 unused imprisoned workforce to work ?
Surely the cultural differences between the US and here are irrelevant when it comes to deterrence, Uber? Unless you are saying that Americans are too stupid to realise that they may be put to death as a consequence of their actions?
Death comes to us all, so having "The Death Penalty" is not a punishment as such it is just bringing the inevitable conclusion of life forward by a few years. When you are dead you are dead, you do not know you are dead because you have ceased to have feelings, thoughts and dreams, aspirations and hopes so hanging or shooting someone as a "PUNISHMENT", is in my opinion nonsensical. What you should do is make the rest of their lives as miserable and as painful as is possible so that every waking hour for these people who have decided to forego their own human rights by taking another human life is a punishment deserving of the crime and not a quick escape into oblivion, but hopefully a long time in which to regret their actions and to suffer hurt and pain and mental torture.
Are you in favour of Sharia law Imaz? I think that quote, or a similar one, finishes with 'except through justice' or something like that. And the scope of capital punishment covers both intentional murder and 'making mischief in the land' - which includes in different places apostasy, adultery and homosexuality. Punishments held in public as a deterrent ( I suspect this acts more as a thrill for sick voyeurs). As Uber says I think the deterrence argument is very difficult to prove - I suspect states with the death penalty and low murder rates are totalitarian/ quasi totalitarian and oppressive anyway, probably not to emulated, or like Japan, culturally weighted against anti social behaviour (though they weren't always like that....). Miscarriages of justices will be inevitable, and there are more of them than you expect. In the last big wave of executions in the UK, 50 people were put to death between 1950-53. Later, 4 of these were pardoned/exonerated. Sounds a small number, but its approaching 10%. And to head a counter argument off at the pass, DNA evidence, available now but not then, is actually only decisive in a very small proportion of cases. Making prisons much tougher is a tricky one as well. At what stage does this drift into unconscious, or even conscious, torture? I have no answers at all on this.
For those of you that believe we MAY be killing innocent people if we were to bring back the death penalty, you must consider that forensic technology has moved on leaps and bounds over the last few decades and continues at an even faster pace now. Where there is irrefutable evidence or indeed a confession, that, for me is enough to top these scum. In my case, if I had the slightest opportunity for revenge for what I was involved in 3 years ago, I would take it. Personal experience may make some of you think again. God forbid it ever happens to you. Take care of your loved ones.
Perhaps. One problem with the American system is that having the option of the death sentence is not the same as using it. Even those sentenced to death end up with a greater life expectancy on death row than they'd have had if they'd not committed an offence and stayed in their neighbourhood.
There are various levels of murder/unlawful killing. Corporate negligence can kill, and some people are disturbed to such a degree they're even innocent in guilt, but in the same way a dangerous dog goes down without too much mitigation on how it got that way, if it was my loved one they killed, absolutely 100% yes I could do that. I make no apology either for saying it would be for vengeance not justice and the shame is that it would have to be humane, I'd want to see suffering. I guess many will say that makes me a bad person, but there it is.
I hate to tell you but I bet it a killer doesnt think about the death penalty, 10 years of life in prison when they are going to the actions, especially a child killer. In the US, they usually spend 20-25 years on death row so even the saving money aspect doesnt work, it actually costs more. How would you feel, if a person close to you was wrongly convicted killed eg like Barry George would have been? Nothing can help the victims in this case.
Excellent post No, I'm not in favour of "Sharia Law" for many reasons. From a religious perspective it could be claimed it's a man made law based on an interpretation of Islam that many do not agree with. Perhaps I should have quoted Gandhi's "An eye for an eye and the whole world ends up blind" instead. Fully agree concerning Japan and its societal controls which turn a blind eye to organised crime and domestic abuse and sexism. In fact the post war war crimes trials executed in such a manner to transfer the Emperor's personal blame onto Generals that willingly went to the gallows for him. I like your point on when punishment becomes torture, may be wrong but afaik some scandanavian countries have had much success at rehabilitation of offenders using a fairly gentle prison regime. So, in summary, I don't want people being hung from cranes in public places despite watching Brody get his comeuppance in "Homeland".
Scandinavian prisons offer a better lifestyle than 20% of the population have here. I saw a photo of a murderer holding a chainsaw talking to an unarmed guard. If the punishment was a deterrent, theyd be the country with the highest inmate level but its not, its the US which had bad conditions and has the highest prison population in the world, both in number and percentage.
No, I don't think they are an irrelevance, Strolls. I think the American career criminal or street gang member ilk thinks less about the death sentence because being killed in the line of their 'career' is far more of a day to day occupational hazard than it is here (although I fear this is changing). So it doesn't surprise me that capital punishment is less of a deterrent for that class of criminal. I proffer that that class of criminal is far more deserving of the death penalty as a consequence, because to them human life (even their own) is seen as a cheaper commodity than we would value it at, and they are by definition far more dangerous and incorrigible of nature to expect rehabilitation to be that effective. In the case of the two-bob villain or bitter cuckolded husband for example, I'd suggest capital punishment may deter some from resorting to murder. An impossible calculation, but intuitively it feels to me that this number would comfortably exceed the number accidentally executed each year.
As in my response to Stroller (above) I agree that a certain class of criminal would be less deterred by the death penalty than perhaps the two-bob villain or bitter domestic. But I think this class of criminal is more deserving of the gallows as a consequence. Lock them up for ever and they still exert influence and control over their external interests. String them up and less so. The practice of holding a convicted murderer n death row for yonks is bizarre and doesn't serve the interests of the criminal or the public. I'd probably look at a maximum of 3-5 years tops before execution, although I'd prefer swifter justice myself. Barry George? Clearly wrong, and a mistake could have been made had we had the death penalty. Everything should be done, of course, to irrefutably prove the guilt of the convicted, but such a system would never be foolproof despite everybody's best efforts. This would also mean that guilty people may escape the hangman to be set free to kill again (as we have now). I dislike either scenario, but that's no reason to deter my support for it.
With the death penalty, there is no way to right a wrong conviction especially with a quick execution. I've already stated kid killers should never be set free so they will never kill again. So in summery, people are more likey to kill with a death penalty so it's no deterrent, people can still be kept in prison for life so it doesn't stop reoffending, Muslims will now increase their killings and believe they will be a martyr plus we will have more innocent people dead.. There isn't a single positive thing for it, its just the daily mail knee jerk reaction of vengeance that overrides peoples thinking.
I've only killed chickens but feel bad about that. Had a friend stretch them over a tree stump and then with the axe... Seeing my cat get put down years ago was horrible.
I guess your anti-Daily Mail bigotry would naturally lead you to these conclusions, Flyer. It is always interesting how intelligent people can hold diametrically opposing points of view, isn't it? I respect the other viewpoint; it's a shame that you cannot.
Flyer, I completely understand what you are saying, however and without going into any detail, I have witnessed at first hand the utter devastation caused by a murderer and hope that you too can understand why that, in cases such as Milly Dowler's and many many more where there is incontrovertible evidence or a confession, I strongly believe these bastards should be put to death. I would not wish you to feel the pain that I feel, but if our roles were reversed I am sure you would think the same way.
I've avoided replying to you because of what you said, I would agree with you if I was in that situation. However, the death penalty would put innocent people and their families in that exact same situation that you have been through. I think death is what some of them want as quite often they kill themselves before trial. I also think they should never be released.
This is always going to be a divisive subject and for the most part it has been well debated here. There are times when we have to agree to disagree. The fact is that if I were given the opportunity I would top the person in question without a second thought. Mind you, there'd be a ****ing long queue.
Again, I agree with you and don't even think a person should be charged in that scenario as its very understandable in extreme circumstances.
