OT - Martinez to Everton

Everton will fly now- great appointment.

 

Bollocks. Simply bollocks. To even imply, not to explicitly say luck played no part is beyond comprehension.

So who did 'deserve' to win the Champions League? You can only beat what is in front of you. If the teams Wigan played, played to their full potential, would they still have won the FA Cup? Is that not luck?

 

This is the sort of job I feel that Martinez was always going to be tempted by, as he turned Villa and Liverpool down when they were in stable.

 

Luck plays a part in every game or sport known to man. The bottom line is the team that wins any competition whether it be a cup, a league or otherwise deserves to win unless they have cheated along the way.

Wigan fully deserved their FA Cup win. Chelsea fully deserved their CL win.

When people suggest that Chelsea didn't deserve their CL win, it really grinds my gears as Peter Griffin would say Of course they deserved to win it, for the simple reason that they did! They did nothing underhand along the way and it wasn't about luck. They won it using defensive tactics undoubtedly, as many have before them. Those tactics are perfectly acceptable. The fact that teams missed pens or chances against them is a non performance of the part of that team rather than some form of luck. Sticking penalties away etc is down to bottle on the day, a very important part of cup competitions as we as Englishmen know only too well! To suggest they are lucky because they got outplayed is nonsense too. There is a reason for that little graphic in the top left corner of your TV screen during games - its all that counts once the final whistle is blown.

 

Barca & Bayern for one, as Barca were the better team over two legs against Chelsea and Bayern deserved to win the final.

A team under performing isn't luck, a team will only play as well as you allow them to. Wigan didn't allow City or Everton to play, Chelsea on the other hand couldn't stop Barca and Bayern playing, but were saved by the woodwork (on 4/5 occasions over the two games) and two missed penalties which I would say is lucky.

Indeed to win the final on penalties alone was luck, yes there is a skill in taking a penalty, but everyone knows penalty shootouts are a complete lottery.

 

Penalties is certainly not about luck and is not really a lottery. Its about bottle, technique, practice and is also a mental aspect. A key part of football. Its like the argument in golf at present where the correct decision to stop people anchoring putters has finally been taken. Nerves are part of sport, whinging when you don't hold your nerve is no good, its part of what makes sport great.

Chelsea held their nerve better in the final, took their chances and deserved to win. Barca and Bayern did not and therefore did not deserve to win. They missed or hit the woowork with penalities or chances. That is under performance on their part. If they'd had disallowed goals that should have stood or a plenthora of wrong decisions, or Chelsea cheated in some way, then fair enough. Chelsea fully merited their CL victory, Wigan their FA Cup.

Winning is not about playing nice or playing the best. It'll go a long way to winning you fans or giving you a better chance of winning, but when its all said and done its about putting the ball in the net.

 

Have to agree to disagree as nobody will ever convince me that Chelsea weren't lucky to win the champions league. I'm glad they did win it because I tend to support English teams in Europe (other than Liverpool). I just don't think they deserved it.

If you outplay someone you deserve to win, why do so many pundits, managers, players, fans etc always say we were unlucky when they've dominated the game but lost 1-0, it's because they deserved to win.

Chelsea's Champions Leage win represents exactly that.

 

Bitterness. Nobody likes losing. Its a turn of phrase as much as anything else for me. You think "****s sake we outplayed them and had umpteen chances, we deserved to win" Really to me you should be saying "****s sake we had umpteen chances, we should have stuck one away and should have won that game" The fact you didn't is no ones fault but your own when you actually analyse it.

Its coulda, woulda, shoulda mentality for me. England down the years are the prime example. We say "ooh we've been unlucky down the years, Becks have his moment and getting sent off, the penalty shoot outs we've lost, Gazza's boot being a inch or two away in the euros" etc. Personally I look and think we missed chances to win and only have ourselves to blame for either not sticking it in the net in terms of chances or pens, not holding our nerve or shooting ourselves in the foot. Strangely the Germans have excellent mental strength and there is no luck about them getting through similar tight situations down the years. Its why last years final was a bit of surprise to see them not hold their nerve in front of goal or penalties.

I suppose I'm not really romantic about failure. It is what it is for me!

 

What were the odds on Chelseas CL win?

What were the odds on Wigan FA Cuup win?

 

Has nothing to do with if either team deserved to win each competition...

You're going on about something completely different now which isn't even part of the debate.

 

It has everything to do with the debate though.

 

Is this 'debate' still going on?

 

It's debating whether it's a debate or not.

 

Everton just interview Rangnick

 

Ralph Rangnick has been interviewed for the Everton job. As long as he stays healthy he can do a job there.

 

Would be a very good appointment, would have him over Pardwho any day.

 

Explain how the odds on Chelsea and Wigan to win said cups has anything to do with Wigan deserving to win the FA Cup??? Even if they were 1000/1 to win the cup it wouldn't mean they were lucky.

In each cup tie (especially the semi-final and final) Wigan out played the opposition they faced, that isn't luck that's just being up for it more on the day. If anything it's a credit to Martinez for getting his players motivated and playing to their highest level of ability. Nothing to do with luck.

Let's just agree to disagree

 

Its a master debate

 

I remember during the Sir Bobby era the Toon faithful were keen on Ottmar Hitzfeld to eventually succeed him and even campaigned to get him in before Souness took charge. Ever since his name has hardly left the lips of the Geordie nation. I'd like him to take over.