First of all "we all" didn't mate. In fact, at the time and given the mass protests, I'd say the majority of British people didn't want to. Secondly, the problems that existed there prior to the invasion were but a drop in the ocean and no worse than many other Countries in the region compared to what has unfolded since. A situation which hundreds of thousands of us could see happening when the Texan village idiot was trying to sell us the lies about WMD's. Hundreds of thousands have since been killed, I believe the figures of displaced/refugees stretches into the millions. The entire Country's infrastructure was destroyed bringing untold misery and often starvation to thousands and worst of all, the aftermath of the war left a vacuum for minority fanatical groups to fill and carry out countless atrocities resulting in many more thousands murdered. The whole region has been radicalized and plunged into further Islamic fundamentalism and hatred of the West and what we're seeing today is merely a knock-on effect from that disastrous decision taken a decade or so ago. Of course the biggest crime of all was using 9/11 as an excuse to invade a Country that had nothing whatsoever to do with it but just also happened to have copious amounts of the black gold under the ground ready to be extracted. The lies about WMD's were just another thing dreamt up to satisfy the blood-lust of gun-loving, doltish Americans and others. Far more heinous regimes were operating all over the World (many supported by the US), especially in Africa but there wasn't an effort to get "rid of a tyrannical regime" in these places, Kampala. I wonder why? Not much money to be made in the jungle I suppose. It was State-sponsored mass murder and exploitation and nothing else. Some dopes who wear their nationalism on their sleeve were fooled but the majority, to their credit, were not. I don't know if living in Africa has coloured your perception of the West's interference in other people's Countries but when bombs and bullets are involved, its almost always doomed to failure.
It's easy to sit back and say if we never got involved in Iraq then none of this would be happening, ten's of thousands wouldn't have died etc etc, however we didn't get involved in Syria and now what's happening....10's thousands have died and in this case probably a much higher % of civilians rather then fighters, with the splits clearly present in Iraq it was a question of when, not if there would be a bloody civil war prior to the invasion, all it did was delay it a little longer. When it comes to the Middle East you're damned if you do and damned if you don't!
No Supergod, no. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you do. What on earth do you think gives us in the west the right to go around the World invading other Countries? What gives us the right to pick and choose which Country we should bomb to atoms and which we should leave well alone? Its that old imperial mindset that's still prevalent even in this day and age that I'll never be able to get my head around. We should leave other parts of the World to their own devices and not invade just to plunder their resources and finance huge multinationals in the weapons-making and oil industries. The irony of it all is that most of the gung-ho, tally-ho "expansionists" are the very same crowd who went out in their droves last month to vote for a party that wishes to keep the UK independent! Jesus wept
Well I am completely staggered................ I agree with nearly everything you said Swordsy....I must be going soft in the head Exactly what does give us (and the US) the right to interfere like we do To chose who to "help".....we only "help" people we plan to exploit No I do not want to see the "clans" killing each other...but should we intervene...no UN should...IMHO
Orchestrated mind benders ... Blair and Bush always just puppets IMO... nice little earner being set up nicely... One thing that will never be allowed to happen .. peace
There's a naivety in the West, that being suppressed by every wicked dictator in the Middle East, there is a country full of people "just like us" who are waiting to build another Westminster or Congress to deliver democracy. There is not. The mindset of most is equivalent to that of the ordinary man in Britain in Tudor times. Mostly peaceful but when tribal hostilities break out in the name of God, what results is ruthless and brutal. The journey to a peaceful, civilised democracy is long and painful - the Middle East countries are taking their first steps
There is naivety alright Goldie but don't for a moment think that that's why western Countries invade these places. They couldn't give two fukks about whether the people are in the shi*ter or not. Its always purely self interest. Its never anything else.
Sure, Swordsey, self interest is a big factor and sometimes its raw like protecting oil supplies etc. But it's also recognised by the West that democracies deliver governments that the West can work with. Compare South Africa, Ex Soviet countries etc with Iran and North Korea
I was working for a charity assisting the asylum seekers caused in the aftermath of the war. I remember reading the newspapers etc which contradicted what was really going on in regards to them being in the UK. I also remember many of them explaining that although saddam et al were evil the country was running well and no matter what is attempted another party/group will fill the vacuum left and it will start over.
Not in my experience mate to be honest. Practically every democratic government in South America has been toppled by the US at some point and a proxy junta installed. Its much easier to work with corrupt puppets who you control than pesky people-led democracies - in many cases at least. The most repressive regime in the middle-east, Saudi Arabia, is backed to the hilt by the US because it does its bidding in the region. I think self interest isn't just a big factor, its the only factor and always will be. At the risk of incurring the wrath of Sooper "The Bulldog" hoop, its not just the Yanks that are/were at it either: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27625540
Reading these kind of threads reinforces the decision I made a few years back to give up on voting. I have as many issues with politics as I do with religions. Religion and politics divide people and you know the old saying, united we stand, divided we fall.
So just wipe our hands of the rest of the world? Maybe we should build a mile high wall around the uk to keep everyone out and so we don't see what goes on elsewhere? Are you happy to pay billions of pounds in humanitarian aid to the children of the world who have watched their governments execute their parents for their beliefs? I would rather see the tyrants removed so the parents can bring their children up free of the violence, I wonder if you lived in constant fear of your own army dropping random barrel bombs full of petrol and shards of metal whether you would wonder why no developed world power was stepping in to stop it! It's easy to shout about oil this, resources that, it's harder for me to ignore the thousands of people being slaughtered by these regimes!
Judging by the recent election results, it would appear the people of the UK want to do just that... Are you having a laugh? Honestly mate, are you pulling my old willy winkler here? Are you seriously telling me that after all these years and everything we now know, you still think that war was about removing a nasty man halfway across the World from power because he was oppressing his people? Please tell me that's not the case because if it is I'm just going to throw in the towel in despair at humanity.
In fairness, he also wrote... "I am the eggman, they are the eggmen I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob goo goo goo joob Goo goo goo joob goo goo goo joob Goo gooooooooooo jooba jooba jooba jooba jooba jooba"
I have no doubt that natural resources played a part but do think there was more to it, we went into Afganistan and it certainly wasn't for any resources. The west heavily rely on middle east resources and if you think that any issues there whether by us or them don't effect each and every person in this country then you are well out of touch, everything from the cost of running your car to the food on your plate is effected what happens in the Middle East, who is in charge, how stable the region is etc. What will happen if Ukraine shut down the Russian pipelines to Europe? Costs go up! It all effects us directly and so we need to be involved, if removing tyrants who gas and bomb their own people is the best way to do that and improve the lives of the people who indirectly keep our country running then so be it!
Lol, Well right now that makes more sense to me than voting green blue yellow or red, and becoming a member of any religion.
Extraordinary. Improve the lives? That wouldn't extend to the million people who are dead as a result of your trying to "help" improve their lives, would it? Jesus Christ, if that's you helping people, who'd have you as an enemy?!! May I ask you, why didn't the Governments decide to invade all the corrupt regimes in Africa or all the other tyrannical despots in the rest of the World, for example Saudi Arabia? At least you've admitted that its primarily self-interest that motivates these wars and keeping our own patch supplied with petroleum etc but please spare me the "we were also trying to help" bullsh*t. Your kind of help is not wanted by these people, believe me. Your kind of help in that part of the World is disastrous and always has been. Great, so you'll just bomb them instead. That's a bloody great help, innit? What Planet are you living on? You can't possibly be that innocent.
Sorry to disappoint you Swords but I personally think the Saddam regime was actually holding their country together. What B-liar and Dubya didn't take into account was that Iraq and many other Arab countries don't want 'Western Democracy' because it doesn't work in their culture. For those two clowns to believe they were doing the Iraqi people a favour by destroying their country to topple a dictator is really naive in the extreme, the Arab culture has always respected strong ruthless leaders, their volatility demands it. I found it quite reprehensible that Dubya and his Republican favourites such as Halliburton made billions rebuilding the country they'd just destroyed but were paid from Iraqi oil revenues, when it came to the crunch that was the reason they invaded. The lies those two concocted to go to war was all about using 9/11 as an excuse to show the World no-one kicks sand in the US face and B-liar was just Dubya's poodle. What's gone on at Guantanamo is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of torture etc, the British are just as adept at the 'dark arts' as your example shows. It's standard practice in most 'civilised' countries but always denied...
