OT: 12 years on.....

Jürgenmeiʃter

Jürgenmeiʃter

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Jun 13, 2011
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Since 9/11. One thing that always fascinated (for want of a better word) is the 'jumpers'. You can't imagine having to face that choice can you? Some tried to use clothes or sheets as quickly made parachutes which just blows my mind and I was looking around on the net and came across this interesting article, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ca-wants-forget-victims-fell-Twin-Towers.html

I don't buy into these conspiracy theories (although there' are probably one or two on here that could argue a good case for this to be true) either and actually think its quite disrespectful to the poor souls who had to live this

To all the victims, families of 9/11 and to the victims and families of the 'war on terror' <rose><rose><rose>
 
The DR says said:
Since 9/11. One thing that always fascinated (for want of a better word) is the 'jumpers'. You can't imagine having to face that choice can you? Some tried to use clothes or sheets as quickly made parachutes which just blows my mind and I was looking around on the net and came across this interesting article, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ca-wants-forget-victims-fell-Twin-Towers.html

I don't buy into these conspiracy theories (although there's probably one or two on here that could argue a good case for this to be true) either and actually think its quite disrespectful to the poor souls who had to live this

To all the victims, families of 9/11 and to the victims and families of the 'war on terror' <rose><rose><rose>
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Ame(e)n to that!
The terrorists, Bush and Blair have a LOT of innocent blood on their hands!
 
Foredeckdave said:
Facile!! There is as much responsibility on the other side.
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Which side would that be Dave? Bush and Blair? The bloody Terrorists that performed the heinous crime in the first place?
Or we going deeper? Why would the Terrorists do such a thing? Was it due to their perceived injustices at the western worlds double standards when it came to the way they went/go about trying to achieve peace in the middle east?
 
One of the issues that interests me is how a sophisticated country responds to a terrorists attack from a more fundamental country. It appears that nobody has found an effective response.
 
jonnybaws said:
Which side would that be Dave? Bush and Blair? The bloody Terrorists that performed the heinous crime in the first place?
Or we going deeper? Why would the Terrorists do such a thing? Was it due to their perceived injustices at the western worlds double standards when it came to the way they went/go about trying to achieve peace in the middle east?
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You're doing it again! I'm not defending the Bush/Blair actions. I am however forwarding the contention that there were forces on the Arab/Muslim/Fundamentalist groupings that that also exacerbated the problems.
 
Foredeckdave said:
You're doing it again! I'm not defending the Bush/Blair actions. I am however forwarding the contention that there were forces on the Arab/Muslim/Fundamentalist groupings that that also exacerbated the problems.
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Bloody hell Dave, I'm agreeing with you.. (Back to night school and English Lit/Language class for me..)
Second sentence states that, could the actions of the terrorists be driven by their interpretation of what they deemed to be double standards by the west? Could this interpretation then lead to "more" radical teachings in "extreme" Islamic Schools, the stone starts to gather more moss as the unwise guide the easily led and you go from "harmless" burning of effigies and flags to suicide bombings to flying planes into buildings...
 
Foredeckdave said:
One of the issues that interests me is how a sophisticated country responds to a terrorists attack from a more fundamental country. It appears that nobody has found an effective response.
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The terrorist organisation in question isn't state lead though, it's a disparate force, so the only way to 'defeat' it, is via intelligence.

The preferred American method of bombing the **** out of any land that might hold their compounds, has been totally counter productive, akin to stamping out a bush fire only to see the embers floating off & starting a dozen others.......
 
Tobes said:
The terrorist organisation in question isn't state lead though, it's a disparate force, so the only way to 'defeat' it, is via intelligence.

The preferred American method of bombing the **** out of any land that might hold their compounds, has been totally counter productive, akin to stamping out a bush fire only to see the embers floating off & starting a dozen others.......
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Agreed, you don't placate an already angry mob by killing more innocent people!
Not saying I have the answer, because I don't, but "Shock and Awe" is just jingoistic, counter productive, clap trap!
 
It's hard to imagine the terror felt by the people in those buildings. For anyone to suggest that the "jumpers" were somehow taking the "easy way out" and condemn them for it is astonishingly insensitive.

All I can do is echo the Docs sentiments; RIP all the innocents who die in these conflicts no matter which side they're on.
<rose>
 
saintanton said:
It's hard to imagine the terror felt by the people in those buildings. For anyone to suggest that the "jumpers" were somehow taking the "easy way out" and condemn them for it is astonishingly insensitive.

All I can do is echo the Docs sentiments; RIP all the innocents who die in these conflicts no matter which side they're on.
<rose>
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Yeah you saw in the article the family of one who didnt believe they'd jump because of their religious beliefs? Madness

Also the guy whose wife called him who had to jump after she was evacuating floors at the top? Heartbreaking

Just imagine sitting there and seeing the plane fly at you. Imagine feeling the heat and being disorientated and having to make the decision to just leap out. Its all really hard to imagine

There are some fascinating (for want of a better word again) photographs in that article
 
jonnybaws said:
Bloody hell Dave, I'm agreeing with you.. (Back to night school and English Lit/Language class for me..)
Second sentence states that, could the actions of the terrorists be driven by their interpretation of what they deemed to be double standards by the west? Could this interpretation then lead to "more" radical teachings in "extreme" Islamic Schools, the stone starts to gather more moss as the unwise guide the easily led and you go from "harmless" burning of effigies and flags to suicide bombings to flying planes into buildings...
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Sorry (again) JB I think its got more to do with my grey matter not working than your use of English <ok><laugh>
 
The DR says said:
I don't buy into these conspiracy theories (although there' are probably one or two on here that could argue a good case for this to be true) either and actually think its quite disrespectful to the poor souls who had to live this
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I don't buy the argument that it's disrespectful at all. Sure, some people just want a conspiracy theory, but there are alot of people who genuinely believe that there is something going on which the public are not privy to. That isn't disrespectful, it's wanting to know the truth. Personally, I think there are alot of unanswered questions. For alot of families, knowing the truth can be a whole lot better than believing a fabricated but easier to digest story. I'd rather not not get into a debate about what the truth is in here though, the thread should be about paying respect and remembering. I just wanted to point out that believing a different set of circumstances which led to the tragedy does not lessen the impact of said tragedy and certainly doesn't make the sad loss of life any less meaningful.

The DR says said:
To all the victims, families of 9/11 and to the victims and families of the 'war on terror' <rose><rose><rose>
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Amen to that. Alot of friends of mine were impacted in one way or another on that day, always a sad day.
 
Tobes said:
The terrorist organisation in question isn't state lead though, it's a disparate force, so the only way to 'defeat' it, is via intelligence.

The preferred American method of bombing the **** out of any land that might hold their compounds, has been totally counter productive, akin to stamping out a bush fire only to see the embers floating off & starting a dozen others.......
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I agree, but neither is swamping the the country with 'aid' a viable strategy. As far as I can see Hearts and Minds is a concept that has no effective process.
 
Foredeckdave said:
I agree, but neither is swamping the the country with 'aid' a viable strategy. As far as I can see Hearts and Minds is a concept that has no effective process.
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'Hearts & Minds' has only come into effect in countries that they've already blanket bombed.

They allowed the perceived need for vengeance to cloud their initial judgement post 9/11. Infiltration of the cells & intense electronic monitoring would have been a much more effective long term approach. Especially if it had been combined with seeking to improve relationships with Islamic countries & looking to work with them as a united force against extremism. Rather than merely launching cruise missiles at them & then offering them a boiled sweet 2 years later when their villages are piles of rubble & a sizeable percentage of their man folk buried..........

The irony is that they've created many more extremists than they've shot dead in the last 12 years
 
The DR says said:
Since 9/11. One thing that always fascinated (for want of a better word) is the 'jumpers'. You can't imagine having to face that choice can you? Some tried to use clothes or sheets as quickly made parachutes which just blows my mind and I was looking around on the net and came across this interesting article, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ca-wants-forget-victims-fell-Twin-Towers.html

I don't buy into these conspiracy theories (although there' are probably one or two on here that could argue a good case for this to be true) either and actually think its quite disrespectful to the poor souls who had to live this

To all the victims, families of 9/11 and to the victims and families of the 'war on terror' <rose><rose><rose>
Click to expand...

With apologies to Sisu, no there isn't. There's a thousand times more evidence that John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry was a government conspiracy than the CIA being in on 9/11. The structural collapse of surrounding building, for instance, happened in Berlin and Cologne too (ie brick/stone built cities) in WWII and no-one said that was a dastardly plot.

Condolences to all the victims, including all the civilians slaughtered BY ALL SIDES in a 'War On Terror' that uses the same approach as Bomber Harris and Curtis Le May.
 
I think its disrespectful to say their own country would murder them and must hurt their families even more

Imo there isnt a chance that they did this to their own and the ludicrous suggestions must heap even more misery on the poor families

I said good case forward in my post as there will be some on here who know more about the conspiracy side to it than me but I dont believe a shred of it and have seen the suggestions of it but just thought its bollocks
 
donga darko said:
With apologies to Sisu, no there isn't. There's a thousand times more evidence that John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry was a government conspiracy than the CIA being in on 9/11. The structural collapse of surrounding building, for instance, happened in Berlin and Cologne too (ie brick/stone built cities) in WWII and no-one said that was a dastardly plot.

Condolences to all the victims, including all the civilians slaughtered BY ALL SIDES in a 'War On Terror' that uses the same approach as Bomber Harris and Curtis Le May.
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I really don't see the point of a reference to Harris in this context especially as you don't include Goering and whoever was the head of the Japanese air force. At least Harris could salve his conscience with the thought that the Germans reaped what they had already sown.
 
Foredeckdave said:
I really don't see the point of a reference to Harris in this context especially as you don't include Goering and whoever was the head of the Japanese air force. At least Harris could salve his conscience with the thought that the Germans reaped what they had already sown.
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Do you just disagree for the ****ing sake of it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb7FgSzeGqg

My dad was in Bomber Command. I have no problems with what Harris or Le May did in the context of the total wars (i.e. nation against nation, industrial and social infrastructure against.... and so forth), but the strategy taken against Islamic terrorism has been akin to if we had bombed the Irish republic and enforced a regime change during the 70's and 80's. That was the comparison, and if your eyes were not so filled with the jism of puppy-shooting, drunken, inbred farmers you'd have seen that straight away. <badger>
 
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