OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

Aha, Stroller... found something that you and a certain Hitchens P agree on!

"Oh no, we’ve done what the voters want! Our political class actively want to be out of step with public opinion, and are sorry they accurately represented it the other day.

A survey of Tory MPs revealed that many actually want to vote again on attacking Syria, so that they can authorise this lunacy, even if it is only an incredibly small pinprick with no discernible purpose. And it’s not just the Tories. Ed Balls, the Shadow Chancellor, also wants Another Chance To Bomb.

He confided to an elite TV show: ‘Our jaws dropped when the Prime Minister suddenly took the idea of military action right off the table.
I wasn’t expecting that, nor was Ed Miliband. If David Cameron is going to put that back on the table, we’ll look at that.’

Well, if they so fervently want not to represent us, I’ll say it again.

We don’t have to elect these people. I’ve reluctantly come round the view that we should bring in compulsory voting in this country – provided every ballot paper contains a slot at the top marked ‘None of the below’.

And if the numbers voting ‘None of the below’ exceed 30 per cent in any constituency, nobody is elected for that seat. Parliament would get a lot smaller. MPs would become a lot more interested in us and in what we think."

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/standing-for-parliament/

 

Haha, well done Uber! You're right, he can't be wrong about everything. Not sure the last bit makes sense though.

 

So everyone eligible to vote who doesn't want to vote for the useless shysters offering themselves up as MPs would be criminalised and yet the millions of illegal immigrants in this country not on the electoral register would get away with it? Total bollox - Democracy is about choices, including not voting...

 

I feel pride in what WE did and gratitude for what our allies did.
I have constantly acknowledged that Britain/England did things to be ashamed of. I think we've covered that tbh.

If there is a future World war, it will probably be short and fought more with technology, but no one knows for sure. There's a chance we'd all have to fight (God help us!) if society were to collapse.

 

I think we have a linguistic difference mate, lets leave it there.

Just about to get on a plane to ......... Brussels. I'll be testing local reaction to the poppy.

 

People here illegally should be dealt with as is appropriate, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the legal population should be compelled to vote. I'm not saying they should have to choose between the 'useless shysters' - the 'None Of The Above' option would allow voters to make a tangible protest, rather than giving the impression that just coudn't be bothered.

Anyone in Australia care to let us know how this works there?

 

I think they are made to go to a polling station
lots of spoiled papers
fine for not going but don't think many fines are handed out

wether you vote or not you should still be on a voting list
bloody deadbeats don't even get to do jury service
or pay council tax(or was that loophole closed)

 

Post 667 after the number of the beast who believes

 

Isn't 667 the fax number of the beast?

 

Could well be ... interesting to see what people's views are on a god etc

Or are we all too clever nowadays?

I believe that for good there must be a opposite or no balance exists

Who is spiritual on here

 

after years of catholic indoctrination I still am unable to denie the existence of god
cant say he exists either but you never know

my invisible friend is better than your invisible friend

 

I wish I had the time to write more on what is becoming a truly fascinating and insightful thread.
It's a credit to this board that the often contenscious subjects being discussed haven't descended into abuse and that this thread is still going strong.

Well done all involved.

 

Here's a piece of (possibly flawed) logic that I'd appreciate people's thoughts on...

Imagine that it is proved categorically that there is no God and never has been, as many people now of course believe anyway. If this is the case then it follows that there is no Final Judgement or accountability; we won't be going to meet our maker to explain ourselves. So, if there is no accountability, then the discreet actions of an individual can only be down to his or her own conscience. Of course there are laws and rules and obligations and stuff that generally binds us together and influences our behaviour, but ultimately it matters not a jot that what one person thinks is right another sees as wrong, because there is no final arbiter sitting on a cloud somewhere demanding an explanation.

You might point to there being accountability to fellow man, but is there? The laws are ultimately made by the strong, because they are enforced by strength. But just because the majority - or perhaps even a sufficiently strong minority? - say that this is right and that is wrong, who's to say that their judgement is any more valid than yours? We have seen various laws change materially over time and, you never know, some may turn full circle again. For example, fifty years or so ago the law felt it right to execute murderers, but now takes an opposite view. Over a similar span homosexuality has move from being outlawed to acceptance to the extent that legal marriage and adoption are with us. This is not a comment or opinion on the moral merits of the state of affairs of either example, it is about what those in the position of greater strength say is the law.

So, if there's no God, we're all free to exercise our own judgement on what's right and wrong. Others may disagree with your judgement and throw you in jail or string you up as a consequence, but that it only because they have the strength behind them. You're not accountable them, they can just stop you from exercising your discretion, or punish you for subsequently exercising it.

What do you make of that?

 

As I’ve said elsewhere in this thread, Uber, I believe that religions were propagated in the past by authorities that saw them as a useful way to control people - the fear of God. This is no longer necessary, as our natural empathy has developed to the stage where most people have an innate sense of right and wrong. Of course we need laws to back this up, but, in a democracy, these laws are largely consensual. If we believe a law is wrong we can set about getting it changed.

To cite one of your examples, we have moved on in this country from outlawing homosexuality because the consensus now is that this law was wrong. It is in only in states hidebound by religion that it remains illegal.

 

OK, I guess if anyone on here is going to buck the trend, it's me....

I am firmly in the 'God exists' camp. I wrote about some of the reasons behind this recently in my blog (reproduced below):

Who are you?

It’s a question that can have a really simple answer on the face of things. You’re Dave, or Sharon, or Pete. But that doesn’t actually give an answer – all it gives is a label chosen by your parents when you were nothing more than a pink face looking out from a bundle of blankets, being passed around to strange people called ‘relatives’…

But who IS Dave, or Pete, or Sharon? Come to think of it, who am I? What’s my identity?

What is it that makes me who I am, unique and different from every other one of the more than seven billion people currently alive, and different from every person who ever walked on the surface of the planet.

Is it to do with my physical being? I’m around six foot one, weigh around 14 stones plus change, with hair that used to be dark, and eyes that used to be 20-20. That’s hardly unique, so if this is part of the answer, there’s going to be something else as well.

Is it about my environment? I was born in West London 48 years ago and have slowly moved west by around 25 miles. My parents are happily married after fifty two years, my siblings (two brothers and a sister) are all living close enough to see each other regularly, and though age is catching up with us all, we are all relatively healthy and happy. I’ve been blissfully married for a quarter of a century, with two daughter who are both an absolute blessing and an bit of a pain by turn, being thoroughly normal, healthy kids. It’s a good place to be, but again – hardly unique.

Is it my heritage? I’ve spent some time on researching my family tree, and have several strands going back as far as the late 1600s, but after a while it just becomes a list of names. There are a few that I know a little more about, like my Grandad, whose character was formed in part by his wartime experiences, but much of the fabric of my family history is lost in time.

Is it what I do? My job is in IT, which might mark me as a geek. My hobby is drumming, which might mark me as a Rock God (not really… ) I love movies, sports, documentaries, history, and music, which positions me as a spectator. But there are lots of people who simply watch and enjoy.

Is it what I think? There are a lot of things I feel strongly about (politics, religion, inequality, football, beer) and a lot of things that I really don’t care about (rainbows, fracking, mountaineering, sky-diving, Pauly Shore movies). I know I’m not alone in most of this.

I don’t appear to be getting very far. But it’s clear that the answer to who I really am isn’t a simple one at all.

Maybe the thing that makes me unique, that makes me me, is that intangible essence that can’t be seen with the eye or heard with the ear. Maybe it’s the spark that separates life from death, in that for many people who see a relative or friend after their passing, the thought is that “it’s just their body, it’s not them.” Maybe there’s something to this that drives me to look deeper, beyond what I am called, what I look like, where I live, what I do.

This is where what I believe comes into play. I believe that there’s something inside of me that makes me who I am, that defines everything I am, everything I feel, and everything I represent. Call it my spirit, call it my soul, but its there. It must be, otherwise I’d just be a random coincidence of chemicals and involuntary actions and interactions, and that simply isn’t enough.

Same with you. It’s what makes you unique, priceless, and remarkable.

Worth remembering, next time you are approached at a party and someone says “Hello! Who are you?”​

I wasn't brought up to be particularly spiritual. Moral, yes, my parents were very good at instilling a strong sense of right or wrong in me. It wasn't until my late teens that I started thinking about the bigger picture, and have been actively involved in my local church ever since.

 

What you say is true, but it doesn't address my fundamental point, which is that ultimately as an individual I am only accountable to you if I say I am and you say I am. If you say I am, and you're carrying the stick and I'm not, then I either choose to be accountable to you because I don't want to be bashed by it, or I ignore you, you deem my actions to be wrong, and you subsequently bash me with it.

You are one human being and I am another human being. So the only thing that makes you a higher authority is the stick. You can substitute the stick for anything that gives you superiority over me, which might be the law, opinion, my conscience, or a greater number of people that favour your position over mine, but it still only boils down to human beings versus human beings. We are ultimately animals, and the stronger animal calls the shots.

Without a deity this is the simple truth is it not?

 

I don't think any individual is necessarily accountable to any other individual. In a group, each individual is accountable to the the group as a whole. My point is that we have developed to the point that we are no longer just animals as we have a greater innate sense of what is right and wrong.

 

Does anyone else find it surprising that there are contributors to this thread, who haven't contributed to the "Thread to be forwarded to Ale" one yet?

QPR related posts/debate are dwindling on the site currently. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say 40% of new posts on the forum are probably to this thread.

But sorry i'm probably intruding...this is afterall the "non QPR" section!

 

Lets see, 37 different posters on this thread and 34 on the 'Ale' one, so at least 3 on here - you know who you are - need to get over there sharpish to restore the balance. Maybe the 'Ale' thread should be a feeder thread for this one?

 

No not really.........Some on here, like me, might of already sent him best wishes by other means and don't feel the need to add anymore on the thread mentioned.
But if it would make you feel better Grifter, i can soon oblige.


Edit: All done