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OT - Über's Open Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Queens Park Rangers' started by Uber_Hoop, Oct 24, 2013.

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  1. Uber_Hoop

    Uber_Hoop Well-Known Member

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    Good man, Stroller. I'm warming to you now that you're admitting to some areas in which you're in agreement with Hitchens Minor. In all seriousness, it does you great credit to continue this engagement in an open and non-confrontational manner, particularly when you're also prepared to concede on certain points. It is an attitude and approach that could serve others well at times (including, no doubt, myself).

    I never suggested film inaccuracies was an issue of burning importance - although it may well be to those directly misrepresented by them - but was invited by you to select a Hitchens Opinion and selected this completely at random. It was getting late!

    I briefly countered your comment on one of Hitchens' opinions on cannabis on post #139, albeit inadequately. It is not true that he opined that cannabis turns people into violent criminals. I believe he suggested that it may trigger violent, psychotic or paranoid episodes in those already at risk of such episodes, i.e. it offers further unneeded stimulus in that regard. I believe there is some evidence of this, particularly that a large proportion of violent street crime is perpetrated by individuals that have recently taken the drug. Of course, there are many violent crimes no doubt perpetrated by people under the influence of alcohol (probably more) or by those that are completely 'clean', but we're talking specifically about cannabis here.

    In post 139 I gave the opinion that my modest own use of cannabis over 20 years had lasting adverse effects on my character. I cannot prove this, but it is what I believe. I cannot identify any other factor(s) that caused me to withdraw in the way that I seem to have done. I'm no hermit - I have a life, honest! - but where once I was more extrovert, outgoing, life & soul and the leader of the gang, I'm now more likely to enjoy my own company, live inside my head too much, see the glass half empty, look for the worst in people first, reminisce more than look forward and hear voices telling me to kill prostitutes. No, that was a lie - I don't always look for the worst in people first.

    This all seems a little trite or pithy, as it often does to me at times, but I stand by the fact there was a discernible, fundamental and adverse change in my overall demeanour. I cannot fathom why other than trace it back to that period and ask what was different. At that time my parents noticed changes for the worst in me, which I naturally denied. I was already a good 5-6 years into my adolescence, so cannot pass it all off as my "Kevin the Teenager" times. I can only deduce that I mentally or physiologically had a propensity to these characteristics and that even modest cannabis use helped to unlock this. I bitterly regret that.

    It is not so much a leap of faith for me to suppose that others with a physiological or mental propensity to (say) paranoia may also have this unlocked by cannabis use.

    The problem is that there are many social cannabis users, as I understand it, who believe the drug has no harmful effects on them whatsoever, or certainly no worse than nicotine or alcohol. It is they that are presumably lending their weight to the legalisation campaign, largely for selfish reasons I would suppose. I fear they may not know what they do, but suspect you have a differing view?

    A question, because I am genuinely interested and it's important to know when having a debate of this nature: Are you a recreational user of cannabis today?
     
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  2. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I had completely missed your post #139, which is why I subsequently queried your lack of response - my apologies.

    This latest post deserves a considered response, and I am just off to watch my son play football, so I will get back to you later.
     
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  3. Swords Hoopster.

    Swords Hoopster. Well-Known Member

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    Is that the Ben Affleck one? Saw it in the cinema a while back.

    I didn't think the British were even mentioned in it, let alone rubbished!!
     
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  4. Uber_Hoop

    Uber_Hoop Well-Known Member

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    Travis, take a look at this:

    http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...he-ayatollahs-a-fine-film-but-is-it-true.html

    Hitchens writes:

    "What happens next is that half a dozen Americans, junior diplomats mostly unequipped by life or training for a clandestine or adventurous life, realise that they are free to leave before the Ayatollah’s Revolutionary Guards take over their part of the Embassy, which has its own independent way out to the street. What do they do? Where do they go? Well, they end up in the Canadian Ambassador’s quite modest residence, and he and his wife, and their Persian housekeeper (perhaps, in retrospect, the bravest of all because she was the most exposed to the danger of death) , rightly get a lot of credit for their considerable nerve in sheltering them there. But at one stage in the film it is said that the ‘Brits’ and the ‘Kiwis’ refused to help them.

    Is this true? Well, according to a report in the ‘Sunday Telegraph’ of 21st October, it isn’t. Read this : ’Sir John Graham, 86, who was Britain's ambassador to Iran at the time, said: "It is not the truth that they were turned away from the British Embassy. We gave them all help at the time. My concern is that the inaccurate account should not enter the mythology of the events in Tehran in November 1979." Arthur Wyatt, 83, who was the British charge d'affaires in Tehran, said: "I'm disappointed to hear how we have been portrayed. The Americans fetched up at our summer compound in northern Tehran, and I think they stayed there for one night. If it had been discovered we were helping them I can assure you we'd all have been for the high jump." Mr Wyatt, who served as a diplomat for 45 years, was awarded the Companion of the Order of St Michael and St George for his work in Tehran in recognition of the risks he took at the time. Mr Wyatt also sent supplies to three American diplomats hiding elsewhere in Tehran, another act of kindness unrecognised in Argo."


    There is a very clear line during the film where a character specifically states that the British turned them away. If what this Arthur Wyatt chap says is true - and why have a reason to doubt him? - then British involvement at that time has been clearly misrepresented, presumably to (a) keep the running time down by simplifying the story, (b) heighten the sense of danger, abandonment and vulnerability that the embassy staff felt at the time in order to increase the tension in the film, or (c) to deliberately tell a falsehood for some unknown reason. Perhaps a combination of these and other reasons?

    Of course, for many people its ancient history and matters little. But for those whose actions were not only ignored by the film, but also misrepresented, when they appear to have taken no small personal risk themselves, well, I have a great deal of sympathy with their unhappiness.

    [I cannot speak for the Kiwis involvement, but note they get the same treatment]
     
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  5. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

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    I saw Argo on a plane (of course) quite liked it, but not enough to watch again. The last part, the big escape from the airport, is completely made up and this is freely admitted by the producers, who presented the film as fiction with a factual back story, as the actual escape was much less tense. It also includes hilarious footage of Iranian jeeps catching up an airliner as it hits its 160mph take off speed. I was unaware of any anti - Brit sentiment during the film,which is not to say its not there. I'm struggling to get worked up about it though, everything, especially documentaries, are filmed from an angle.

    The cannabis thing I am now getting really confused about. The libertarian in me says decriminalize it and everything else, regulate and tax the trade, because keeping it criminalized just creates crime and profits for criminals and in some instances people who use the profits to wage wars. Ask anyone in Mexico whether keeping drugs illegal is good for everyday life.

    Plus, there is the total hypocrisy of having legal alcohol and tobacco, while banning the rest.

    On the other hand the damage these drugs do is undeniable. I have also noticed that cannabis, of which I have some knowledge, is immeasurably stronger today than when I was a casual user, to the extent that some versions are as mind altering as LSD. Ideally I would say its up to the individual, everybody should be free to choose their poison and learn from the experience. But I'm not so naive to believe that everybody has the equipment to do this and the weak, vulnerable and easily led are at risk. How do we protect them and individual freedom at the same time? Big question.

    On the medical question, through my work I can categorically assure you that there is a proven link between cannabis use in teenage boys and increased prevalence of schizophrenia. We are not talking about an inevitable progression but there is a statistically significant link. But loads of things are bad for you, and we wouldn't think of banning them.

    I'm erring towards heavily regulated and taxed decriminalization, while recognising that there is no easy answer and this has major drawbacks.
     
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  6. Swords Hoopster.

    Swords Hoopster. Well-Known Member

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    Ubes, I'm sure you'll excuse me for missing the one sentence in which the British were mentioned! I wouldn't get too exorcised over it mate. Hollywood exists to make entertaining films. Facts are secondary and in some cases such a hindrance so as to be discarded altogether.

    As for Affleck himself, there was talk a while back that he was going to run for the Democratic nomination for President next time round! Stranger things have happened I suppose. Ronald Regan managed to do it handy enough.

    As an aside, I'd like to give a mention to the Moderators at this point. They were questioned a couple of weeks ago about closing threads too early (not that they listened to my ramblings, nor should they) but by a couple of good, genuine posters. This fine thread proves what top Mods they are in that they took on board the suggestions and have allowed conversations like these to develop more freely. It would be easy to overlook it but credit where its due. They're a quality pair of blokes.
     
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  7. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

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    Hey Flyer, some interesting stuff in the Sunday Times about Americans. Apparently 54% of them are fine with same sex marriage, and 58% would support legalization of cannabis for all uses. Whereas only 36% would favour attacking Syria and 28% like the Republicans. Rather at odds with your image of them, but I doubt you will waiver in your steadfast hatred.
     
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  8. Uber_Hoop

    Uber_Hoop Well-Known Member

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    If we went for heavily regulated and taxed legalised drugs, would you limit this to just cannabis, Stan? Or would you make this a blanket state of affairs for all currently illegal narcotics?

    I remain unconvinced on the argument that drugs should be legalised because alcohol is. Of course, alcohol can be a blight that can equally cause misery to many innocents...and does. But is this alone a good reason? Two wrongs and all that...? My fear is that legalisation of drugs is such a huge experiment that getting it wrong could prove extremely costly.

    There has been some debate about what is addiction? For me, it is when either the physiological or habit-forming pleasure or affects of doing something outweigh the perceived benefits of ceasing that activity. I know it is far more complex than that and I have been criticised in the past (by you, I think?) for reducing it further to a simple 'cost/benefit' equation. But I would still argue that in many cases the initial and/or continued use of certain drugs is a selfish act, often made by individuals that are generally aware of (or choose to deliberately ignore) the effect this is having not only on their lives, but also on others. Who believes that the teenage 'addict' who steals and sells his mother's jewellery isn't aware (to some degree) of the hurt this will cause, but ranks this behind his need for the next fix?

    I fear that legalisation, regulation and taxing will only serve to make the legal 'safe' drugs available to only those that can afford them. It is like some of us enjoying a Cabernet Sauvignon whilst others are on Chateu de Anti-Freeze. The poorest, arguably the most vulnerable, are unlikely to be best served by legalisation and regulation in my opinion. I suspect criminal activity will continue and the poor will continue to suffer the most.

    To be honest, I don't know what the right answer is, but in my jaundiced view of the world, I tend to believe that whatever we try we'll most likely get it wrong, as we have so far.
     
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  9. Uber_Hoop

    Uber_Hoop Well-Known Member

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    Exorcised? Do you mean 'exercised', or are you suggesting I'm possessed by demons? :wink:

    Nah, I'm not getting too exercised over this particular omission from this particular film. I believe I got my retaliation in first by acknowledging this issue was not of huge importance in the grand scheme of things. It was just a random subject that came up and it captured my interest. I'm funny like that - I'll leave others to decided whether that's funny ha-ha or funny peculiar.

    Affleck has lowered his sights from President to Batman, I gather.

    I completely echo your comments on the Mods, Travis. I am personally enjoying the intelligent and largely civilised debate that's taking place on this thread. I'm sure that the moment it descends into something less it will have to go, which will be a pity but understandable.
     
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  10. Swords Hoopster.

    Swords Hoopster. Well-Known Member

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    "Jesus, fu*k me. Jesus, fu* me" The power of Christ compels you! <laugh>

    please log in to view this image
     
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  11. rangercol

    rangercol Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree with this. I think it looks a very good film, but I won't watch it for its historical inaccuracies.
    If you google "Argo" you get this: "Argo is a 2012 historical drama thriller film directed by Ben Affleck."
     
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  12. Uber_Hoop

    Uber_Hoop Well-Known Member

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    As DT might say, nice one centurion!
     
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  13. rangercol

    rangercol Well-Known Member

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    I am very fond of history and find it a fascinating subject.
    I realise that film makers should always have poetic licence, but if a historically true film is made, then I expect the history to be re-told accurately. Obviously, events can be spiced up and dialogue added for dramatic effect, but historical inaccuracies should not be part of the film imo. As mentioned, Braveheart is another good example, where the English, who were vicious and often in the wrong at that time in history, were portrayed as the only ones acting in that way. In fact, the Scots were equally brutal and often in the wrong too.

    Also......can I just say that this thread has been absolutely brilliant!!
     
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  14. Uber_Hoop

    Uber_Hoop Well-Known Member

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    Cheers Col.

    I'm afraid British filmmakers don't escape criticism either. I still count Zulu as one of my all-time favourite films, but having read many accounts and snippets here and there about Rorke's Drift, it is plain that liberties were taken. It does, however, remain the battle within which the highest concentration of VCs were awarded (I believe).
     
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  15. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

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    I haven't thought it through Uber. Would probably start with cannabis and sure it would involve pilot schemes, complicated licensing systems for growers (apparently most grass smoked in the UK is grown in the UK) and retailers, rules like the Dutch (much more limiting than people think) about where it can be consumed etc etc. In fact it may work as a job creation scheme. And of course it would only be a limited success as illegal trade to kids would continue. All I know is what we are trying now is farcical. My son (17) assures me that you can get any drug you want very easily on the streets of Leamington Spa for Christ's sake.

    Yes, we've disagreed on the nature of addiction in the past. I'm probably not qualified to add to it. Of course its selfish, all consuming, and damages many more than the addict. But I still pity some of them.
     
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  16. Uber_Hoop

    Uber_Hoop Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I pity some too, but only because of their frailty and the way they have chosen to lead their lives.

    Hitchens P suggests that the UK ceased to wage a proper war against drugs over 40 years ago. I haven't read his book (yet) so cannot articulate why or say whether I agree with him or not. I'm more worried about Flashman and the Khalsa right now.
     
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  17. rangercol

    rangercol Well-Known Member

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    I realise British film makers are equally to blame mate.
    I also count Zulu as one of my all time favourite films, but I was under the impression that Zulu WAS historically correct. Please enlighten me as to the inaccuracies.
     
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  18. QPR New York

    QPR New York Active Member

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    Never let historical accuracy get in the way of a good story!
     
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  19. rangercol

    rangercol Well-Known Member

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    Mmm.............
     
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  20. DaveThomas

    DaveThomas Well-Known Member

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    I dont buy into Loose Change completely as of course its been made to influence ... There's the rub ... it works both way lads ... why believe anything official over the power of doubt. For every doubt on a particular point there will always be another answer or question. I stand completely firm on a number of points that for me just don't add up around the pentagon attack ... the biggest being the small hole made, the engine parts etc.

    Lets make thing very clear however there have been very strange cover up stories concerning this dreadful historical event ... one question why? and i am happy for that to sit with me rather than get fed an official version

    I come from a clear scientific pharmaceutical background being in R&D for 15 years and will never accept the simple official versions of the vaporisation ... simply impossible. I struggle with deja vu but some scientific facts I have to stand with but for my pleasure I listen to the Artist Taxi Driver http://www.youtube.com/user/chunkymark daily its keep my head clear
     
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