Off Topic Off-Topic Thread (Anything Non-Football Related)

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by TheOXOCube:5pur2, Feb 23, 2015.

  1. PISKIE

    PISKIE Roasted Spuds
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    Not sure about Kifflom's agenda (if he has one) but he is right that there is a part of Islam that promotes violence against infidels. If you've studied Islam then you will know this. You cannot escape that. Personally I think groups like ISIS have completely warped the Qu'ran to suit their own agenda, but it is a misnomer to say that ISIS have nothing to do with Islam. My personal view is that all religions have aspects that promote hatred and intolerance against non believers and/or condemn them to eternal hell for not believing.
     
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  2. Treble

    Treble Well-Known Member

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    Agreed mate, I'm not disputing you on any of that and you know I have nothing against you. But the actual content of the Kifflom post you liked is virtually all lies. He does this on his own board but there are far too many like him on there to get a word in edgeways. I'd like to think that on other boards, there are plenty of good folk to call him out on his bare-faced lies. He literally makes stuff up and presents it as fact. He definitely has an agenda. I have no particular affiliation to muslims or the Quran, and agree there is a extremist minority who use it to further their own warped agenda - which btw sadly our governments help to finance and fuel, but to me that extremism/fundamentalism is a problem with near enough all religions, not just Islam.
     
    #2082
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  3. PISKIE

    PISKIE Roasted Spuds
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    Fair play, I haven't seen any posts from him before. And agreed on the general point I was making that there is (in my opinion) a problem with near enough all religions around intolerance towards anybody who is a non-believer. I just see that as a form of social control and I do wonder how much the original texts have been re-written over the centuries to support this patriarchal control agenda.
     
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  4. Treble

    Treble Well-Known Member

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    You'll probably shoot me down for this, but by and large I believe religion has been a force for good around the world, and I speak from experience :bandit: When you get away from the sensationalism of current affairs and news events, and actually see how people's beliefs - whether they're Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish etc it makes a considerable difference to the daay to day lives of people who are impoverished and less fortunate. What we see in the news is a political agenda, on all sides which has many players including sectarianism - with Turkey, Syria, factions in Lebanon, Israel, Saudi, U.S, Iran, Russia all with a vested interest. It has little to do with the theology of Islam - but just because we happened to arm and fund a bunch of screwballs into becoming a major force in the region over the last two years, suddenly it's all Islam's fault. Naive. Give any group enough funding and machinery and they'll achieve the same.
     
    #2084
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  5. PISKIE

    PISKIE Roasted Spuds
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    The day to day faith of people I've met around the world is certainly a force for good and social cohesion. I would however take issue with idea of religion as a panacea, I see that more as a coping mechanism set against social injustice. Many oppressed people have sought religion as a panacea, the idea that 'my suffering in this life will be rewarded in heaven' kind of misses the point of life in my opinion. It was Karl Marx who famously said that 'Religion is the opium of the people'. I can understand that if you are poor and oppressed then the idea of religion is a safe place to retreat to, but I take issue with it being used as an alternative to standing up to social injustice.

    Getting into the broader issues of geopolitics / war / resources etc and that has more to do with the military industrial complex, with many of the local countries in the middle east being used as puppets in the proxy wars of the USA, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Russia. But it has to be said, that there is a huge schism within Islam between Sunni and Shiite which is used as a backdrop to fuel tensions in the area and the sectarianism that you mention fans the flames. Then you have the likes of ISIS who see anybody who doesn't follow their strict version of Islam as infidels who should be killed. I'm certainly not saying that it's 'Islam's fault' that the insurgent groups that the west funded and armed are now causing mayhem, the picture is far broader than that and the US has been arming groups in the area since the Afghan / USSR conflict, whilst some of the local conflicts go back centuries.
     
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  6. Kifflom!

    Kifflom! Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear. You've never opened a Qur'an or the Hadith. It's pretty obvious However, I have. I've also read two biographies on Mohammed's life and the excellent Ayaan Hirsi Ali's work on the subject as well as some of Maajid Nawaz. You criticise my post for being 'rubbish' without saying why. Maybe because none of it is factually incorrect, and I dare you to challenge me on that.

    I understand how Mohammed lived his life and why Islam is so divergent. Most Muslims are peaceful because, like most Christians, they cherry-pick. I'm fine with that. I know this because my Muslim Egyptian friends cherry pick and they are lovely people. Long may it continue.

    People like you (usually from the Left) see any criticism of Islam as bigotry. In a free country we should be entitled to challenge bad ideology - and Islam is definitely that.
    • Women treated as second class citizens
    • Gays are persecuted
    • The promotion of Jihad
    • The supremacy of Islam
    • Apostates put to death
    All of this is mandated by Islam. If you want chapter and verse I'll provide it. Are all Muslims bad? Of course not. You won't find a single post where I've said that. But Islam is a pseudo-political ideology and when you understand the principles of Islamic abrogation and Taqiyya you'll realise how dangerous it can be. Islam needs reform from within. Non-Muslims can never achieve that, and I hope that moderate voices eventually prevail.

    Saying so doesn't make me a racist or a bigot. Whilst you're about it I'd be grateful if you'd point out the 'lies' in my posts. Because frankly, I think you're full of ****.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 24, 2016
  7. I am Gooner

    I am Gooner Member

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    I dont understand how you've reached your accusation of Christians cherry picking. Care to explain.
     
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  8. lazarus20000

    lazarus20000 Well-Known Member

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    #2088
  9. PISKIE

    PISKIE Roasted Spuds
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    #2089
  10. lazarus20000

    lazarus20000 Well-Known Member

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    I bet it burns everything he looks in the mirror. Truly a cruel joke.
     
    #2090

  11. thefanwithnoname

    thefanwithnoname Well-Known Member

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    What a load if nonsense. I know the Qur'an and hadith well, I Also know masjid nawaz, and u can say you don't appear to have a clue
     
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  12. lazarus20000

    lazarus20000 Well-Known Member

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    I think it's best we keep religion out of this thread. It will only create hate and arguments.
     
    #2092
  13. Kifflom!

    Kifflom! Well-Known Member

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    The "You're ignorant" jibe is the most common I see when people have trouble countering my arguments. This is just another. If you have an argument that (for example) Islamic texts don't actually teach men how to beat their wives I'd like to see it. We both know it does - and I can quote the passage. Do all Muslim men do this? Of course not. But Islam is a bad ideology that thankfully most of its followers cherry pick from. Sadly, many take it in the literal, 7thC sense. Saying otherwise is head in the sand territory.

    By the way, the only thing I hate are the people who want to kill us and the ideology they follow. If anyone else wants to go and give them a big hug, knock yourself out.
     
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  14. thefanwithnoname

    thefanwithnoname Well-Known Member

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    You went to with that one? I was wondering which Sam shamun school of argument you were going to come up with. How tiresome but...

    I take it you are referring to the miswaak here?
    OK let's see what you know
     
    #2094
  15. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    Terrorism aside, my problem in general is that I don't understand how Muslims get a pass on some of the things even moderate Muslims express when you talk to them.

    If you make a homophobic remark as a white atheist these days, you can be arrested for hate speech, but if you are a Muslim you can say on national TV that you think all homosexuals should die, without a word being said against you.

    If any man says he believes that wives should obey their husbands you will have a fat feminist in your face screaming at you and you will be not allowed on any University in the Western World, but Muslims will tell everyone who wants to listen that our country is ruined, because we don't beat our wives enough, and they don't respect us.

    And I can't even begin to say what would happen to a white Christian Cleric if he said he thought it would be OK if an adult man married and had sex with a 13 year old girl, or that throwing acid in a woman's face for adultery or less, was a good idea.

    We are supposed to say that Muslims are still good people and we are Islamophobic if we don't but it is a double standard and I'm just a bit confused. It really would be better if the moderate Muslim community were much more outspoken against some of these issues, instead of being really unforthcoming. I think non-Muslims would be much more likely to support them, if they felt that a terrorist threat was the only problem we were getting, when we accept them into our communities.

    I'm aware that it is dangerous for a Muslim to say anything in the Koran isn't perfect, but it is dangerous back in the Middle East too, and it isn't much to ask for what they get in return when they move.

    Really the choice is, do you want to be a Muslim community, who happens to be in Britain, or a British community that happens to be Muslim, and really there is only one choice that is acceptable to Britain.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
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  16. BrunelGooner

    BrunelGooner Well-Known Member

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    I've been trying to ignore your posts for a while now because they were just downright irritating, but I keep seeing you post crap like this and now I'm going to call you out on it.

    This is probably amongst the biggest pile of nonsense I've ever read on this forum. And given how much garbage people on here can post at times, that really does take some doing. Congratulations.

    I will dissect this post when I have time later, but bloody hell Toledo, I really do struggle to believe that you're serious when you write most of the things you do.

    It's ridiculous that so many non-Muslims think that they are experts in Islam and try to tell Muslims what they do or don't believe. Or what they should or shouldn't do. Everyone thinks they're a mind reader these days. I'd suggest you stop making assumptions and baseless claims because you already look like an uneducated fool, and you're just making yourself look like an even bigger one.
     
    #2096
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  17. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    Well all I can tell you I have worked with a number of Muslims and the one thing they always tell me is that I don't beat my wife enough. They seem absolutely serious to me. And they also tell me that homosexuals should be killed. And these are not terrorists. So you can call it rubbish all you like.

    The trouble is twats like you just listen to the politicians on TV and don't talk to real people. Me, I understand that not so long ago in many places, beating your wife and killing gays wasn't considered such a bad idea. I have lived out of the UK for years and there are plenty of countries where beating your wife and killing gays are just what everyone does. They will even hit their wife in front of you. I think they think it is impressive.

    I have never read the Koran and I don't have to, or intend to. Go live in a Middle-Eastern Muslim community if you want to see reality.

    I don't hate Muslims, even if they want to beat their wife or kill gays. That is what they were brought up to believe. In many ways, it isn't even about them being Muslim. But the problem is that the rest of the community in the UK hate people who do these things, and therefore they have to deny that this is a cultural norm for most immigrant Muslim communities. Nobody deals with the problem though, because everyone has to pretend it doesn't exist.

    The trouble is that you have today so many things that are politically incorrect, that a paradox at some point was bound to happen. So you cant criticize Islam, but it is also politically incorrect to beat your wife and hate gay people, so you end up with brains melting.

    Doesn't matter to me, I'm not Gay or a woman, and I don't live in the UK any more, so ****ed if I care.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  18. winifred122

    winifred122 Well-Known Member

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    Utter nonsense.
     
    #2098
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  19. BrunelGooner

    BrunelGooner Well-Known Member

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    I can't really comment on this because it's anecdotal. I can just as easily say that Muslims who I know and work with give a lot to charity, are very kind, well-mannered and respect other people's beliefs and values even if they don't agree with them.

    It's just your word against mine here.

    It's true that there are some Muslims who do have backward ideas about how to treat their partners and homosexuals, but that is less prevalent now than before and also, this isn't just something that is endemic amongst Muslims, this happens with other people in other walks of life too.

    Twats like me don't talk to real people? You mean me, an actual Muslim? <laugh> Yeah, how stupid of me, a Muslim, to not know what Muslims think. Do you ever stop making ridiculous assumptions about people?

    As for the politicians on tv, I have no clue what planet you're living on, but there is a lot more anti-Muslim bigotry and hatred from the media and politicians than praise for them. I am more than happy to provide evidence:

    Here's an academic study of Muslim portrayal in the media from 2017:
    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1748048516656305

    Former racial equalities chief Trevor Philips says Muslims will never integrate:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-racial-equalities-chief-Trevor-Phillips.html

    Slovak officials say they were monitoring every single Muslim after Paris attacks:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ris-attacks-claims-slovakian-pm-a6737851.html

    Trevor Kavanagh claiming that Muslims applaud the actions of bombers and grooming gangs:
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/39825...ed-to-root-out-evil-lurking-behind-migration/

    UKIP candidate describes Islam as a 'cancer':
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ine-santos-tommy-robinson-tweet-a7716381.html

    This list goes on. This isn't taking into account the day-to-day Islamophobia Muslims get, the rise of far-Right groups on anti-Muslim platforms and the attempted ban of Muslims in several countries.

    <laugh>. So let me get this straight. You have never read the Quran, and you don't want to, yet you're the one making all these fabrications and distortions about Muslims? There isn't a scintilla of truth to the charges you're making here and the fact you don't even want to fact-check what you're saying suggests to me that you are happy to live in your bubble of prejudice.

    Again, you're making baseless claims. You're telling Muslims what they were and were not brought up to believe. I am a Muslim and I was not brought up to beat a woman or to kill gays. You would be hard-pressed to find many who do believe these things. And people don't pretend it doesn't exist. If anything, people bring it up all the time when they criticise Muslims/Islam (even though it isn't permissible in Islam to do such a thing and I am more than happy to provide evidence to prove this).

    I've just provided you with ample evidence that shows plenty of people criticising Islam. There are thousands of articles on the internet criticising Islam and high-profile figures in various specialist fields criticising Islam. You can watch videos on YouTube as well of this happening. The problem isn't criticising Islam, the problem is the stigmatisation and unfair portrayals of Muslims from people who have never read a book about Islam or spoken/listened to a Muslim in their entire life. Because then you need to ask yourself what the wider effects of this are in society and how Muslims are treated by others.
     
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  20. ToledoTrumpton

    ToledoTrumpton Well-Known Member

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    What is nonsense? That I don't care? I really don't.

    Look, I have lived in 10 different countries for 6 months or more, and I can tell you they all have different customs. If you haven't
    Who mentioned the Koran? I'm just saying that I think it is wrong to be a racist and judge Muslims by a different standard than Europeans.

    And yes people do criticize Islam, but the people who do criticize Islam are themselves criticized as strongly if not more strongly for that criticism.

    I mean you are seriously over-reacting to a very harmless observation I made, about how if another group was even suspected of promoting violence against gay people, in the UK, or violence against women, politicians would be falling over themselves to condemn them, particularly a female Prime Minister. Your actions just demonstrate how anyone even mildly rebuking Islam is jumped on.

    You are actually proving the exact point I was making.

    PS: Are you really saying that Sharia doesn't promote the idea that homosexuality is a crime? Or that the Koran doesn't indicate that women are second class citizens?

    Or are you pretending that you can simultaneously mind-read all Muslims in the world and have determined what they think, and you know that most of them don't really believe in the Koran?

    I think I would need more evidence of your mind-reading powers before I believe you.

    I mean by that judgement, not all Nazis were bad, because very few of them were actually involved in killing Jews? What about the moderate Nazis?
     
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    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
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