O/T Margaret Thatcher Has Died

Yeah, the fifty-odd percent on the posturing, sanctimonious, sub-sixth-form left are pretty odious and judgmental bunch aren’t they. Very good haters.

 

Just saying what I see Warky. There are many offensive comments on this thread. I have never seen you apologise, so pot, kettle and all that

 

I haven't mocked and insulted the dead but I suppose that's ok in your moral sewer! BTW I don't mind the commies, I'm off to Cuba this year for my holidays.

 

The thing which really annoys me about this whole thing is the whole left and right debate, it's pretty boring, just because you think your on that wing or the other wing people seem to be unable to criticise or praise dependant on what side they consider themselves. It's like the blind faith and optimism shown in supporting a football team, it's narrowminded!! Anyway rant over!!

I think any PM who's served this country deserves respect and a decent send off (everyonee Thatcher should not be an exception) but then they also deserve to be criticised for their policies. As I said she deserved a respectful send off but also you have to understand that she ruined many people lives, so you can see why they would be angry. Also alot of the stuff surrounding the funeral it would seem to me the Lady herself wouldn't of approved off!!

I certainly think something should be put in place for all PMs. I mean for example if Thatcher got this funeral surely Blair should aswell??

 

Careful PTC you'll get splinters sitting on that fence

Surely it is better to believe in something than nothing at all!

 

I believe in myself, is that good enough?

 

Good enough for me mate!

 

Taking a balanced view doesn't mean you believe in nothing at all, I believe in pragmatism, it means you don't corner yourself to a certain way of thinking just because you think you're inclined to a particular wing which I think is a little outdated.

There are plenty of politicians particularly Cameron and Ed Miliband who probably I would say often go against what they believe in because they understand they need to occupy the centre ground to win an election but one of the reasons why Blair was so successful was because he truly believed in the 'Third Way' which meant he was truely comfortable in the middle ground, he was a conviction politician who I geuss you would say sat on the fence!!

 

Taking a balanced view doesn't mean you believe in nothing at all, I believe in pragmatism, it means you don't corner yourself to a certain way of thinking just because you think you're inclined to a particular wing which I think is a little outdated.

There are plenty of politicians particularly Cameron and Ed Miliband who probably I would say often go against what they believe in because they understand they need to occupy the centre ground to win an election but one of the reasons why Blair was so successful was because he truly believed in the 'Third Way' which meant he was truely comfortable in the middle ground, he was a conviction politician who I geuss you would say sat on the fence!!

 

I agree with your analysis PTC, Blair is a pragmatist and I admire him for his bravery in modernising the Labour party in the teeth of internal opposition. Unfortunately with Milliband as leader I see them lurching to the left and reverting to type as a party of protest without any coherent policies. Labour needs to be seen as a Government in waiting but all we see is a disparate party which opposes everything but comes up with no credible alternatives.

 

I wasn't expecting that response

your right. I think the problem Labour has is we are in times of austerity and many of its MPs are traditional Labour and feel they need to support the worst off because there's no other alternative on the left and Ed hasn't got the leadership to pull them back into the centre because he himself isn't totally comfortable in the centre ground. Cameron is the same to be fair which is why he didn't win a majority. I think it would've been a completely different kettle of fish had the other Miliband been in charge of Labour, which is why the Tory Party cheered when he wasn't elected!!

 

I am certainly not an out and out leftie. I have my own business for heaven's sake. If Im watching This Week I would tend to agree with Michael Portillo over Diane Abbott. Ken Livingstone and Boris Johnson have both made valuable contributions to London but Boris has done a heck of a lot of environmental damage which is inexcusable. I think there is a lot of value in competition, the problem is that the senior Tories and especially the present group are not particularly interested in fairness or aspiration but simply preserving the Old Boys Club, except for Gove who is clearly just completely off his rocker. I also think you can have a competitive economy while still preventing people from falling through the cracks. Human beings are competitive by nature but achieve very little in isolation. Politics is an awful lot more complex than left against right, and PR plays a much bigger part than ideology these days. At the moment it is more about who can keep a straight face whilst blurting out lies and half truths, something i don't believe Tony Blair, Gordon Brown or Margaret Thatcher did much of to their credit. Milliband is certainly not taking Labour to the left, he is not taking Labour anywhere.

 

No but you have made comments about the disabled, 'workshy' and immigrants which you deem to be acceptable.

I actually fear that if a lot of this stuff becomes acceptable to say we will soon see a resurgence in support for the far right.

 

Thatcher will never be forgiven by many for that one terrible act of violence.

I mean, that elbow could have ended that lad's career...

 

Excuse me Tony Blair didn't lie about Iraq????!!!
He was the consummate actor.

 

I have mentioned them but I haven't insulted them. A debate needs to be had in this country about the overall benefits system and how we are subsidising some families to do bugger all

 

So, if Warky hasn’t insulted them, what debate is it permissible to have? Is it the standard of “if it offends someone, then you shouldn’t say it”; ergo, all debate is shut down the second someone claims “offense”?

And why is “workshy” in quotation marks, as if they’re another group that people like to pretend are a mere myth?

Does anyone recognise this one: “Mass Immigration Is A Good Thing Because They Do Jobs We Won’t Do” (another PC shibboleth). This necessarily requires an army of workshy, as if we were all busy with our highbrow Western jobs (not that I’m suggesting the PC are in any way patronising) it would be jobs we CAN’T do due to lack of labour supply. Of course, the former idea that it’s jobs we won’t do supports that other great Bringer of PC Browine Points – slagging off your own country and people. Also, note here the wild contradiction that if you advocate mass immigration due to LACK of labour supply you cannot then decry, with all the usuall crocodile tears, free-market capitalism, as this is a capitalist solution (usefull idiots). And never any mention that the constant increase in population (immigration-driven since WW2, and especially New Labour, along with the high birth rates of said immigrants) creates a vicious circle requiring more immigration by putting demand on services, plus ever-increasing population is calamitous to the environment. Those shocking racists, the Green Party, put England’s optimum population at 30 million (pre-war). But, hey, let’s deem Boris Johnson’s actions (whatever they were) “unforgivable” (no way back for poor Boris) but ignore the biggest single reason for environmental problems (global over-population in another no-no for debate).

But let’s not mention any of this - otherwise you might encourage the right. Perfectly fine to encourage the far left whose childish policies would make absolutely EVERYONE miserable, not just their particular scapegoats.

Part of the problem with the whole “workshy” thing is the slackjawed sense of entitlement that the whole welfare state and its army of sub-Marxists apologists give. This causes those who veer to deadbeatery to be at best ungrateful to the largesse of the state (they get a financial safety net including most of their rent paid, free education, free health care, but they are still entirely justified to claim oppression beyond the slaves of Ancient Rome and riot if they aren’t handed a good job on a plate, not that they’ve looked for one or considered their dumb speech, inability to read and head to toe tattoos might be a factor (I’m embellishing here to annoy Hampy&#8230). At worst it fosters resentment – an impression that all is a zero-sum game; that the economy is unaffected by the actions of those within it; that anyone successful is only successful to the detriment of those at the bottom and only successful because of where they were born and who they were born to. This allows the notion that the so-called “underclass” lifestyle is entirely justified – a mere corollary of an unfair society.

As with “equality of opportunity”, there’s only so much you can reasonably do. If you’re serious about equality of opportunity we’d have to have a state so totalitarian and controlling it would make Orwell’s 1984 look like a libertarian paradise. Where the all-pervasive sense of entitlement exists there will always be someone better off, so there will always be anger and resentment. Ditto the constant struggle to reduce the difference between “rich and poor” – an entirely unachievable and frequenlty undesirable aim. If an advancement is made, in health for example, that benefits people across the board, the inequality factor in that area will increase. The only solution then, is to oppress the better off and only implement policies that will only advantage one group.

We have a welfare state and equality legislation a-plenty of which the state appropriates over half the money generated in the economy to pay for (as if all economic activity belongs to the state and they only let us have some due to their generosity). So, if we can’t debate any this and practice our traditional freedom of speech and thought, the “underclass” should stop whining and the PC brigade should recognise the contradictions and hypocrisy in their dumb shibboleths and shut the hell up.

 

Jonah, it's not even worth wasting my breath on this.

 

I'm offended by the term 'workshy'.

I prefer 'ergophobic'.

 

JJ have you swallowed a copy of Romeo and Juliet and the Daily Mail recently and just regurgitated it??