NUFC Youth System

Well I'd say to that the best comparisons are Bournemouth, Burnley, Everton types right now. They've spent decent amounts on good players in their team, kept their spine, and could slip a youngster in here or there. When they were relegation candidates Everton weren't throwing them in. No its not some perfect logic but its highly unlikely that, unless you're predicting comfortability, you will risk youth over experience. Yes I wish it was different, but it isn't and shows no sign of changing unless there's some balls-out rules after Brexit.
You said do a Dortmund, but they invested. We're on about shutting down our youth team to cut on spends.
Southampton were promoted through the leagues with that team they took on the prem with. Not comparable for me.

 

You sound like one of these managers or clubs restricting our young players with these excuses.

Everton have always promoted youth regardless of their league situation. Even going back to the likes of Cadarmarteri, Jeffers, Ball, Osman, Hibbert, Rooney, then followed by Coleman etc. Now the young guns again. Its about attitude and Everton are the perfect example of how a club should approach as they have stuck to it steadfastly throughout the years. Interestingly they are an ever present in the PL (one of 7).

The promotion of young players is not really affected by who you buy. Its just another common excuse used to justify it. Ah you'll ruin a young player is the cry. You won't. Indeed there are countless examples of young players thrown into relegation threatened sides who have flourished, either helping maintaining status or earning themselves a big move when relegated. You don't even have to look very hard - Jordan Pickford. Of course in a perfect world you introduce them to a winning successful side with a rock solid spine. In the real world you have to be a bit more ballsy like Pochettino or Tuchel. Guys who took over clubs at the lower end of the league and plunged the young lads in.

It is crap by the club to cut back as I've already noted. Its a cop out to save money. Lets not pretend its the only facet of the issue though, because it clearly isn't. Managers like ours are part of the problem, you only have to look at his record. That's a record not at relegation clubs like ourselves - we're talking European giants. The way the league is and the monetary pressure it applies is also clearly a problem.

We have to change how we are viewed as a club by young players. The only way to do that is for the manager to stop buying players no better than the young players he's discarding, and actually give them a chance. Newsflash, it won't make us any worse, we're ****!

 

I think we aren't producing the talent that is necessarily good enough to force is way into the first team, broadly speaking. I think that's infrastructure, facilities, community engagement, leadership and coaching at youth and academy levels tbh. You can't blame managers for picking the best players available (ie senior players) to them given the pressure to get results, but when there isn't the standard of player coming through from your youth system then it's inevitable. The level needs to be raised across the board and tbh giving someone other than Peter Beardsley a go at running it is a good start since he's had years and produced nowt.

 

However we have produced players or bought players better than those being picked IMO (though I accept others will see certain ones differently).

Mbabu > Manquillo
Mbemba =/> Clark/Schar/Fernandez
Armstrong - would have been more useful than having a shortage
Mitrovic =/> Joselu
Aarons =/> Atsu
Longstaff = Diame (certainly on current form)

I wouldn't want to target Rafa because he is no different to the rest of these foreign managers we have in this country's top flight. Its just mad that he moans about money but wastes money on players we don't need and already had better players. He'd have been better off retaining the younger lads, and spending his money on the ones he desperately needs.

It doesn't matter though does it, history tells us Rafa will not pick them anyway. To me that's sad, so even if we invest in all those things you correctly state, he still won't pick them. History tells us that in no uncertain terms. So the question has to be asked, does the club have a point on this occasion?

 

So, keep me right, what exactly is history telling us again?

 

We never produce anything

 

Sterry > Yedlin and Manquillo
Armstrong > Joselu
Why do people keep mentioning Aarons? He was given a chance, and even on loan in **** leagues he is ****
Roberts > Atsu
Longstaff should be back up for Shelvey

 

Look at Norwich . They produce youngsters all the time. Why, Because they are just given a chance. Doubt that very much , They are just better

 

Didn't Keegan scrap the youth system when he was Manager?

 

GROOT is dodgy.

 

Sure did and it didn’t stop us all bending the knee.

 

He has ability and has had a tough time of it. I don't think it would have helped that as soon as Rafa arrived he immediately got cast aside. I'd love to say this is because he is not doing enough in training, but Rafa seems to have discarded every single young player - not all to our advantage. Aarons hasn't kicked on since his initial promise, there is no doubting that. I think the right manager gets a hold of him though and harnesses that ability.

The loans have been poor moves. Hellas Veronas he was working under Rafa's former assistant. Similar approach to youth! Plus lets face it they were utter ****e before he arrived and already doomed for relegation. He basically went to a side where he had little hope of showing much as they wouldn't have the ball. He has to carry that though as he was given two options, them and Hull, he chose Italy.

Then this year he has joined the Czech side. We'll see how he gets on but he only made his debut in mid to late September so way too early to pass judgement either way.

22 now though so he needs to get sorted.

He's still better than Atsu. Callum Roberts too. It doesn't matter how you do on loan anyway. Arma went away did well, and got sold. Mitrovic went away did well and got sold.

 

I disagree. He was ****e long before Rafa came along.

I remember a few years ago (around the time Raheem Sterling was having a great season for Liverpool) people on here were ****ing themselves silly over Aarons as they thought they were similar.

I argued then that he was worth at most £1M. What has he done since then? Hmmm......nothing!

Also, with the loan thing and doing well - this also happened before Rafa came - people like Forster and Tavenier

 

Hasn't had a chance since then. Same argument I have about Armstrong. People say he's obviously not good enough as Rafa doesn't pick him. But he doesn't pick any of the youngsters so how does that stack up? Not a single youngster has under Rafa. Only 22 so still time for Aarons to turn it around. I think he is doing ok at this Czech side, might do him the world of good as they are an ok side so it might bring him on a bit more. The big question mark is still can he stay fit. Plenty natural ability, but you have to stay fit and produce it on match days. He hasn't done that. Obviously had off field issues too.

In terms of his ability its just a personal choice thing, I think he is talented, you don't.

 

Pickford was in due to injury, like how Krul got his chance to sign.
Some nonsense here like, Coleman was bought as a 21 year old, virtually no difference from say Kenedy or what we did with Perez. 2 decades ago a lot of the names mentioned at Everton but also a period where they still bought decent players: Gazza, Barmby, Bilic, Kev Campbell, Big Dunc. Good players with experience to blend the youth in. They battled relegation two seasons, not every year. Where do we have that in our team when there's only Elliot and Diame above 30. Hardly experienced in the Prem either. Better example would be Moyesy's tenure. Aside from Rooney, who I remember people were saying would be amazing before he'd even made first team, he had to rely on experience due to a lack of investment. That's the same Moyes who made Pickford a starter at Sunderland after an injury to Mannone so thanks for proving my point that it isn't all specific manager's fault and may have more to do with club choices and consequent investment. Anyway, Pickford came off the back of a successful loan at a championship club, as opposed to league one or being played on the wing etc.

Tuchel and Pochettino have their academies and youth teams invested in, and so far have come into ones already invested in. Can you tell me where we have this? Rafa is actually asking for it. I see Southampton are still blooding youth without Poch, see Dortmund managed it before tuchel, I see Spurs have always had an obsession with young English players, I see we slap sports direct signs everywhere for free and won't spend a mill or two sorting out training facilities.
Armstrong, as much as I liked him, had a **** loan at a champ club and two good loan spells at League One clubs. Doesn't necessarily dictate PL quality really. Aarons went on loan to Italy and did **** so why would we play him this season?
Managers can be part of the problem but think it's just superficial to bleat on about Rafa as if he's the issue. Or foreign managers, even though you mentioned two as your point.
I'll moan about the manager when we have a sufficiently funded youth system, I didn't even do it with Pardew on this. You've admitted it's ludicrous we're cutting back and we were never one of the frontrunners to begin with. We know where the root cause is and, without that, your hoping on absolute luck with your youth system.
In an ideal world we'd go down, do a Southampton and start focusing on youth. We don't though because Fat Mike finally spends to get us right back up and into another relegation battle.

 

Battling it out with Mbabu as well...who coincidentally would be a good cover at LB this season...

 

I wouldn't give Rafa a penny towards a youth academy unless he is going to sign something saying he will use it. He doesn't use it and never has. That is regardless of the club, its size, investment or ambitions. Real Madrid, Valencia, Inter Milan, Napoli, Liverpool, Newcastle. He hasn't got any interest in youth development. You have to give players a chance before you decide they are not good enough. Rafa doesn't do that. That isn't opinion, its fact - unless you can suddenly conjure up an unknown record of players getting those opportunities under him? Rafa is an issue when it comes to youth, here and elsewhere, to pretend otherwise is nonsense.

Sorry nothing has proven your point. Everton have always promoted youth. All of those mentioned came from different times. It doesn't matter if they are bought at 21 and quickly progress from the youth/reserve side or come through the academy. The point is young players getting opportunity. Rafa does not afford players that. You've tried to talk round the Pickford issue, but got no where. Young player, given a chance, smashed it. With us at present we don't need a load of experienced players to blend them in. There are enough senior pros there to do so. All they have to do is be better than what we've got, that isn't difficult.

We can of course disagree on the standard of players. Perhaps you think Manquillo is a better option than Mbabu. Perhaps you think Joselu is a better option than Mitrovic. You may think Schar and Clark are better than Mbemba. You may think Darlow is better than Woodman. That's fine everybody sees the ability of players differently. For some though it is a bit daft Rafa bleating on about transfer money when they see him wasting money buying players no better than young players we are getting shot of. If your budget is tight that to some of us seems a bit backward.

Arma didn't have a **** loan at a championship side. He spent 2 loans in the championship playing out of position. However such was his attitude, he still made 58 apps and scored 9 goals despite so much time out on the wing. They were actually good loan spells where his professionalism was exceptional and should have been rewarded. Harry Kane made 65 apps across his loan spells scoring 16 goals. 1 in 4 record playing in his favoured position the whole time. It didn't scare Pochettino, he plunged him in. Arma is doing just fine in the championship this season again despite only amassing 593mins. He has 4 goals to his name and is developing nicely. Aarons didn't pull up many trees at Verona but they were already down before he arrive and were cannon fodder. I can understand the reluctance to use him therefore but I do chuckle on two fronts. One is Atsu. Two is that not the environment you think its unfair to judge a youngster, a struggling side lacking experience?

Its not really making any sense from you. Your excuse for Rafa's misuse of young players here is to say the problem is investment? There is a problem with investment but that won't make Rafa use the system or buy young players to use in the first team. Having had some of the most heavily invested youth systems in the world at his disposal, he didn't use them. Why would you think it would be different here?

It is simple really, while they are linked, they are two separate issues, and both need to be addressed. We need to invest in our youth system. We also need whoever is in the managers seat to use the youth system. If Rafa doesn't want to do that then he should be jettisoned obviously. Without either the other is useless. So Rafa can bleat in about investing in the youth system all he wants, because anyone with a smidgeon of knowledge about his career knows its hypocrisy of the highest order.