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Grand Prix thread Not606 2016 Italian Grand Prix Chat and Predictions

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by taeleon, Aug 30, 2016.

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Take your pick for who will be walking away with the winners trophy.

Poll closed Sep 4, 2016.
  1. Lewis Hamilton

    88.9%
  2. Nico Rosberg

    5.6%
  3. Daniel Ricciardo

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Sebastian Vettel

    5.6%
  5. Kimi Raikkonen

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Max Verstappen

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Valtteri Bottas

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Sergio Perez

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Nico Hulkenberg

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Other please state in bold in the thread.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. cosicave

    cosicave Well-Known Member

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    That's a good post, DHC.

    The prospect of major rule changes concerning the car is almost always an exciting one, since it presents a very real opportunity for something unexpected at the start of the new era. However, the reality is usually underwhelming as it becomes clear that one team has, far more often than not, stolen a march on the opposition.

    And let's consider the changes themselves vis-a-vis the long-standing complaints about F1's lack of overtaking: with a wider chassis and also being much quicker in the corners, 2017 spec F1 cars are likely to make overtaking considerably more difficult. Much to the chagrin of the 'purist' who wants excitement without gimmickry, this will emphasise DRS, assuming a following driver has managed to get within range from the preceding corner; and the merry-go-round of complaints will have gone full circle…

    As for the Italian Grand Prix, and the lack of input to this thread, the reality is that there was little or no controversy.

    • One way or another, Hamilton fluffed the start.
    • Rosberg sailed off into the distance without fear of a challenge.
    • Verstappen (wisely) kept his head down.
    • No team mates hit each other.
    • The only clear bit of misjudgement occurred at the back of the field, between two drivers with no hope of getting into the points; not surprisingly, it doesn't hit the headlines in a forum, whose membership is far more interested in what happens up front.
    • Despite Hamilton dropping to sixth off the line, Mercedes scored a perfect 1-2.
    • Rosberg was booed. Again. For seeing off all challengers, one wonders? Being jeered is never received as 'playful', regardless of the intention of those who – in the diminished responsibility of the crowd – join in. Booing and jeering is never funny. There was once a time those attending a Grand Prix were ladies and gentlemen, respectful to all participants.
    Is there anything more to say? For this race, it seems not.
     
    #121
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  2. Sportista

    Sportista Well-Known Member

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    The good thing about the new rules is that if someone does have a big advantage, we at least are no longer in an era where the FIA have agreed not to meddle to peg teams back. So at least we'll have RedBull style, can they overcome the latest hurdle put in their way style domination, rather than here are three open goals we all know what the outcome will be.
     
    #122
  3. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    What difference does it make? Domination is boring for the fans to watch, hence everyone is leaving F1 in their droves because we haven't had a truly competitive season for a long time now.

    It's a waste of time saying domination is better under Red Bull, or Seb will dominate in 2017 so that's okay, if it's still as one sided as the Schuey/Vettel/Merc era's then it's bad for the sport.

    If you can marvel at what RBR did, then you can marvel at how right Mercedes have got it for the last three years. Both teams found competitive advantages and used them to stay at the top. If anything, RBR had a lot of help from the FIA with them allowing upgrades to the Renault engine and turning a blind eye to flexing floors/wings etc which helped them. Was still boring when Vettel won 9 straight races in 2013, not even a fight with his teammate back then either.
     
    #123
  4. EternalMSC

    EternalMSC Well-Known Member

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    I think only two of the four Vettel years was really dominated, 2011+2013 (50%). Whereas Mercedes have dominated every year since 2014 (100%). Depends what your definition of domination is. For me it is completely trouncing opposing teams without any chance of them winning unless the team dominating ****s up.
     
    #124
  5. Smithers

    Smithers Well-Known Member
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  6. Smithers

    Smithers Well-Known Member
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    ....and controlling the power unit supply to keep 2 teams at arms length!
     
    #126
  7. EternalMSC

    EternalMSC Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
     
    #127
  8. EternalMSC

    EternalMSC Well-Known Member

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    You could say that the Schuey era was only dominated in 2002 and 2004...

    please log in to view this image
     
    #128
  9. eddie_squidd

    eddie_squidd Well-Known Member

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    Jenson has never created the same amount of excitement for or against. I was at the British Grand Prix in 2009 and there were very few Jenson supporters compared to Lewis ones even though he was looking on course for the championship. The biggest cheer of the whole day was for Lewis doing donuts at Club after the race when he had finished 14th or something.
     
    #129
  10. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    What team or what driver it mostly irrelevant... the outcome is that the last 4 seasons have been mostly crap and something has to be done... somehow. When Hamilton waltzes off in to the lead and wins a race without ever being challenged, It's not particularly satisfying, even as a supporter and it's usually equally dull if Rosberg does it. There's just little thrill.
     
    #130
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  11. eddie_squidd

    eddie_squidd Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. There's nothing like the heart racing when the main protagonists in the championship meet on track and start going at it hammer and tongs. Sadly, I can't remember the last time that this happened. Not without them taking each other off the track anyway.
     
    #131
  12. JonnyBaws

    JonnyBaws Well-Known Member

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    2010 and 2012 last time we had a multi team/driver battle...
    Hope the new rules and no more token restrictions means the gap to Merc is closed up, if so, 2017 could be 2010 and 2012 all over again, if not, I may switch off half way through the Aussie GP!
     
    #132
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  13. JonnyBaws

    JonnyBaws Well-Known Member

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    Agree with EMSC... Redbull was never as dominant as Merc have been..
    2010 and 2012 was "wide open" they had the best car in 2011 and 2013 but for the most part still lost to other teams on merit..

    2014..
    Merc's imploding cost them an easy 1-2 at Canada
    Hamilton's Grid pen cost him a win at Hungary
    Nico and Hamilton hitting each other cost them another win at Belguim.
    But for these, they'd have won each race that year!

    2015..
    Track and Tyre conditions played a part in Ferrari having an edge at Malaysia
    Poor start by the Mercs cost them a Win at Hungary
    Only Singapore were the other cars better...
    So, but for one race, they have won the lot!

    2016..
    Spain, they were in a class of their own and would have finished a good 20+ seconds ahead of 3rd place, at a canter if they didn't take each other out.
    I don't see any other team getting close to them for the remainder of the year, unless we get funny track conditions or a wet race.

    Its bloody boring and we need the the rest of the pack to catch up and make it interesting!
     
    #133
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  14. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    But it was so one sided the seasons were boring, just like now, and even the in between seasons with Schuey and Vettel they still won. The same driver winning 5, 4 or 3 consecutive titles is not good for the sport (assuming Lewis wins this year).

    The main difference (IMO) is that neither Schuey or Vettel had serious competition from within their own team, we don't like that Mercedes are dominating but at least the drivers are battling (and crashing) with each other. Neither of the other teammates either got close to them, or were able to race with them.

    Domination is domination. Whilst you can decide whether driver A domination is better than driver B domination (depending on which driver you like), for anyone who doesn't like that driver, it is bad.

    What people want to see is a battle royal between two drivers from separate teams going wheel to wheel with each other for the lead. We have not had for far too long now, and rarely has it been in consecutive seasons in recent times.
     
    #134
  15. EternalMSC

    EternalMSC Well-Known Member

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    To be as simple as possible. I'd rather cross team battles rather than just the pair of drivers from the same team fighting for the wdc for 4 seasons straight.

    Back in the 00's you had Ferrari vs;
    Williams,
    Renault,
    BMW,
    Mclaren etc.

    In the early 10's you had Redbull vs;
    Ferrari,
    Mclaren,
    to some extent Mercedes and Lotus Gp.

    Now in the mid 10's its just Mercedes vs Mercedes own cock up's lets face it.
     
    #135
  16. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    Ultimately that is what we all want, not just for one season at a time, but all the time so real rivalries can develop on the track, not just media based because two people banged wheels fighting for 8th place.
     
    #136
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  17. EternalMSC

    EternalMSC Well-Known Member

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    It will go one of two ways next season. It will either be 2009 or 2012. One hopes it will be the latter.
     
    #137
  18. Sportista

    Sportista Well-Known Member

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    EMSC and some others get what I meant. If the same team or driver is going to win repeatedly at least make them overcome different challenges. Have a narrative to the seasons. As Sgt says, It's not about who wins and loses. It's about how they win, the level of performance they bring, the competition they face, the achievement involved.

    Have Merc or Lewis won three championships or one 3 year long one, or the same championship 3 times? In my view, the second and third year are copies of the first, with nothing new or remarkable about them. 2014 was an incredible Merc achievement technically, if the FIA had banned half their tech over the winter and they'd come back and done it again so would 2015 had been. However the problem is we knew that wouldn't happen for political reasons and combined with tokens, reliability penalties and the long lead times associated to Powertrain development, we knew that nothing was really going to change during or from season to season.


    The RBR years, you have completely misremembered/misrepresented, ASC. After/during 2011 the FIA continually changed the rules to try and haul the RB advantage in. Repeatedly changing the aero wing rules with respect to flexing, the engine mapping rules, the positions of the exhausts etc to try and negate their advantage. That period was in my opinion quite interesting

    2009 was Vettel and RB fighting back from the wrong technical solution and running out of time to overcome a competitors lead. The incredible story of that Brawn team winning that WDC from the brink of closure and seeing off the next F1 juggernaut.
    2010 was Vettel and RB as the fastest car, but recovering from an early reliability deficit, and facing internal and external competition, that they just about over came from the most unlikely of positions.
    2011 was a straightforward victory for the best car/driver combo, despite the FIA trying you haul them in.
    2012 was a fight back from rule changes that hindered early performance and worse reliability than a relentlessly consistent external competitor who put together one of the best F1 seasons ever.
    2013 was a straightforward victory for the best car/driver combo. In the end they achieved effective perfection and I do agree that by the end of the season it had become more dull than incredible.

    So Vettel and RB effectively had a tough championship, that they lost, a tough one that they won, a dominant one, another tough one against a exceptional competitor and another easy one, but one in which they demonstrated exceptional performance. The narrative moved on from year to year and even if each individual race wasn't fantastic, when has F1 ever been such?

    Yes, Webber wasn't on Vettel's level in the same way that Rosberg isn't on Hamilton's, but at least he never rolled over. When he felt an injustice he raised his performance and got into Seb. Not bad for a number two driver, Multi 21 and lobbying for "back me for the championship, Seb has no chance" in 2010 all being examples. Conversely Rosberg disappeared after Spa in 2014 after Merc got stuck into him publicly, let Hamilton through in Monaco this year (who does that to their only competition?) - which at this point has cost him the lead of the championship and may eventually prove decisive, and we've had three years of listening to Toto trying to talk up the competition Rosberg provides whenever luck or a Hamilton cock-up masks the true competitive order, which frankly I find insulting to our intelligence as fans.

    If Vettel wins the next 4 championships, say:
    • 2017: is a see saw battle with Verstappen and Riccardo, Ferrari and RB are well matched.
    • 2018: Fernando quits, Jenson comes back just as McHonda get it right (would be just Alonso's luck!), and Vettel narrowly beats him in a 2009 rerun.
    • 2019: Ferrari make a brilliant car in races but it can't qualify, Vettel wins the Championship, but never starts from pole and takes the lead often in the last five laps as the RBs play team tactics with one holding him back early in each race as the other storms off.
    • 2020: narrowly beats Verstappen, who fed up with being Daniel's wing man, joins Ferrari and matches him for pace throught the year, with multiple close races
    Then we'll have had 4 brilliant years of F1. We'll also have our first 8 time WDC, he'll have been dominant, but it won't matter/won't be dull because he'll have done it differently each time, worked hard for it, been part of restoring Ferari to greatness, overcome different challengers and the outcome will have been in doubt until the end. Unless you hate Vettel and/or Ferrari:
    • It won't have been a hyped up, faux competitive, cake walk orchestrated by a major automotive manufacturer.
    • It won't have been 2015/2016
    • It will have been a pleasure to watch
    • it will have been competitive
    • it will have been entertaining
    • it will have been sport...


    Dream over. :emoticon-0106-cryin
     
    #138
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
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  19. Mrcento

    Mrcento Active Member

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    If i'm right about Mercedes and their FRICMk2 suspension, then it's not going to matter a jot next season, they'll still be waltzing off.

    Yes more downforce to cars, yes wider tyres, yes the floors will be producing more compared to now. But all that tied together still works best when the car is cornering as flat as possible (effectively helping "seal" the floor and provide the most stable aero platform possible at all times). If anything the rule change could help them increase their margin unless others develop a similar way.

    Only hope is somebody like McLaren or Red Bull nailing the system too (or similar) and for their engine manufacturer to find some kind of silver bullet to out BHP Mercedes.
     
    #139
  20. Smithers

    Smithers Well-Known Member
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    The FRIC was allegedly banned.
     
    #140

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