Off Topic More London Attacks

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While I think it is always better to take them alive when possible, just for the opportunity to interrogate and potentially learn something, I would be surprised if anyone could be prosecuted for finishing off an attacker wearing cannisters around his waist that could very well have been real bombs. Any sort of movement could surely be used as justification for thinking they were doing something.
 
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haslam said:
Agreed. In the USA many more people get shot and killed by their own children accidentally each year than by terrorists. That doesn't make great headlines though.

The issue isn't that some people think things should be done and others don't. The way some people try to polarise views of others incorrectly is lazy and misleading, it's fair to say as a starting point that everyone thinks terrorism and murdering is a bad thing and should be prevented where possible. Where people differ is over how big a problem it actually is and then what measures are reasonable to deal with it. This are both very emotive grey areas.

How big a problem is it? Well as a cause of death it's off the scale. The bottom of the scale that is. 61,000 people died of dementia in the last year and the government have cut funding on care, medical treatment and are trying to push payment onto the dementia sufferers themselves. Hell over 1,000 people die each year falling down the stairs. If people want to play a numbers game then terrorism is a minute problem to the point of insignificance. So lets forget about the numbers then if you want. Windy said that if it was a member of my (though he wasn't talking to me at the time) family or a friend who had been killed in the terrorist attack then I would think differently. That may be true but is that not the case for pretty much every cause of death? If my wife gets run over by a drunk driver I'm unlikely to think "oh well these things happen", if my mother develops dementia (the leading cause of death in women I think) I have a suspicion I'll be a tad upset and if one of my sons takes his own life (suicide is shockingly the leading cause of death amongst men from 18-30, what the hell does that say about our country!) I'd probably not get over it ever either - the level of funding for mental health in this country has also been cut drastically, especially amongst children.

Terrorism is bad, it is a problem but my opinion is that it's a sideshow to the actual problems we have. There is a lot of hyperbole around and it seems that anyone who says anything suggesting there are bigger or other issues get put in a box with ISIS sympathisers.

What do we do? Well I tell you what will make no difference whatsoever. Theresa May saying they will get longer sentences - the suicide bomber and the men who got shot. Pretty sure that, as far as deterrents go it's not a great one. Similar to many gangs jail-time, if served, is often seen as a badge of honour. We could of course try to break the internet but no-one is actually sure it is possible, most think it sort of isn't. It's hard to say, to the point of impossible, but my opinion (and it is just an opinion) is this: most wars end when the people you are fighting with stop. Not because you've killed them all or bombed them all or beaten them up but because they've had enough. In the world wars eventually Germans were living in too much poverty and hunger so revolted (as did the Russians but they sort of weren't our enemy). You cut out the supply lines and starve them out. That isn't going to other countries and bombing them, that merely scratches the surface and works to recruit as many as you kill (or significantly more) - it also creates moral ambiguity in ex-pat groups from those countries who accept that terrorism doesn't represent them but don't like that their country is being bombed either. It's reaching out to the moderates, making the terrorists appear for what they really are, highlighting the differences between the faith they claim to support and the realities of the faith, highlighting how many muslims have been killed by ISIS (for more than westerners). Drive wedges between moderate supporters and fantasists, once their mothers get wind of what they're planning they'll soon put a stop to them!
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You've obviously put a lot of time and effort into your post.

I appreciate it's your point of view, but, you could quite easily have made your points without analogies on how people die.

I find it both crass and disrespectful.

There have been a few similar posts the last couple of weeks, from a few posters I thought had more sense.
I really don't get the point you and others are trying to make.
 
I see they've named two of the cowards. One of them married with kids. He was also 'known' to police and the security services. I am with some of the comments above - You can be jailed for viewing *****phillic material so why shouldn't the same apply to extremist material that advocates murder?

The authorities know where these keyboard warriors congregate online. Their activity can be monitored. Get them and these hate preachers off the street. Moderate Muslims are fed up with these idiots and a lot report extremist behaviour to police. Our forces are woefully under staffed and funded. Give the police and secret services the manpower to go into communities and root these ****ers out. The muslim community of this country are by and large proud to be British and want to live in a safe and democratic country where they can enjoy freedoms and their lives in peace. These jihadist ****ers are trying to cause friction and bigotry.

Daesh and their pathetic little followers hide in the shadows because they are terrified of being found out. Allow the police to find these ****s. Arrest them under the law. Try them under the law. British citizens - Military prison. Non-UK - deportation. I am getting tired of hearing the phrase 'known to authorities.' These idiots are committing an offence by viewing this material in my eyes. Arrest them for that offence and you are potentially saving lives.

I have said it before - If you are travelling to the likes of Syria and Libya without the express authority of the government then you should not be allowed back. The presumption should be that you are going there to fight for daesh or to receive terrorist training. It should be immediate withdrawal of your British citizenship in absentia.

We also need to rethink our relationship with Saudi Arabia. That country is the mother of extremism and allowing them to send their Wahabhi preachers to pollute the minds of vulnerable Muslims is just wrong. Close the Saudi sponsored mosques down. Wahabhism is a dangerous and toxic cult that has no place in a democratic and tolerant society. Most Muslims reject its teachings.
 
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Qatar is the bigger problem.
4 arab countries just suspended relations with them over terrorist links... Saudi was one of those countries...
 
Heed said:
You've obviously put a lot of time and effort into your post.

I appreciate it's your point of view, but, you could quite easily have made your points without analogies on how people die.

I find it both crass and disrespectful.

There have been a few similar posts the last couple of weeks, from a few posters I thought had more sense.
I really don't get the point you and others are trying to make.
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Cheers for the reasoned response, how it should be. I really don't believe it is disrespectful but respect is a matter of opinion rather than fact so people find it where they want.

The main thing I'd disagree with is the line in bold - disagree with people (and myself) by all means as my opinions hold up to the same scrutiny as everyone elses (that is not at all) and we can still get on absolutely fine, no issues with you in the slightest you seem sound - but dismiss others as simply 'not having sense' because they're saying things you don't agree with and you put yourself down.
 
Windy_Mag said:
One of them appeared in a Channel 4 programme about Jihadis and unfurled an ISIS flag in the process. This just gets worse.
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Police have now named the third attacker. It appears that he tried to travel from Italy to Syria last year but was stopped by the authorities. But somehow he still got back into Britain.

Seriously, WTF?

You couldn't make this up :headbang:
 
I'd run an ad saying all jihadists had won £1000 and to contact a specific number (MI5) to claim the prize.

These thick ****ing ******ed nut jobs wouldn't have the intelligence to join the dots.

Thick ****s.
 
I am Groot said:
Is he one of the 3 responsible for the London attack or is he just someone else?

Regardless, unless he has some very, very good reason for obsessing that knife, then put him before the Courts, give him a fair trial and then throw the key away.
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Someone else.
 
I am Groot said:
Is he one of the 3 responsible for the London attack or is he just someone else?

Regardless, unless he has some very, very good reason for obsessing that knife, then put him before the Courts, give him a fair trial and then throw the key away.
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I'd like to see a general review happen of the whole burden of proof system for terrorist related offences. Carrying a knife is a good example of the individual having to prove innocence rather than the onus being on the CPS to prove the intent and the guilt.
 
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I am Groot said:
Regardless, unless he has some very, very good reason for possessing that knife, then put him before the Courts, give him a fair trial and then throw the key away.
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If that was sold legally (regardless of whether it was bought legally) then I assume there must be some justifiable use for it somewhere - but I'm ****ed if I can think of one. I think it's probably worth reviewing which large knives do have a justifiable purpose and which ones don't if there are reasonable alternatives that are harder to misuse.

Irrespective of that, I think you would need to be a complete idiot to buy a knife like that and walk the streets with it - even if you are genuinely on the way home. If you have a genuine reason to buy it and don't have a car then get a lift there and back from a friend or a taxi. Anyone with half a brain would know it could lead to dire consequences if you are stopped with a knife like that in the current climate, no matter why it was bought.
 
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