For those of you slating Joe Royle's time as manager I think you conveniently forget the great things he managed to achieve at the club. Set in the right context we had just been relegated and the club was in an absolute mess financially and indeed entered administration as a consequence. We said goodbye to one of our prodigal son's in heartbreaking circumstances. Joe Royle came in at a time of turmoil that was a hell of a lot worse then the situation is now. He steadied the alarming decline on the pitch by fully utilising our youth academy bringing through the likes of Westlake, Bent, Richards, Ambrose, Bowditch, Haynes and at the same time brought in some astute signings with the likes of Kuqi, Horlock, DeVos, Davis, Bart-Williams. Thed conversion of Bam Bam to a Centre Half was a master stroke imo. low and behold within 18 months we were challenging in the play-offs with a team that he put together for peanuts. We played great attacking football and although we weren't the best defensively we knew that we could always out score the opposition and so it proved. Ipswich 6 Crewe 4 for example! Just for good measure he got us into the play-offs the season after. All this against a backdrop of having bugger all money, having to sell our best players like Herman, Holland, Stewie etc. Yes it went wrong in his final year simply because he was told by sheepshanks that he had to sell the best players in the squad to balance the books. That's why he left in the end because there was no money to invest and one example being the £100K that the board wouldn't give him to go out and buy Ricardo Fuller. Over the last few years ever since Magilton and the era of having money to spend every single manager has fiddled while the club has burned. The amount of money that has been squandered is eye watering and unsustainable. We have now ended up with a group of journeymen players picking up their final pay cheques, no youth coming through the academy (or being given a chance) and basically there is a lot wrong with the football club in its present state. He will have to transform the squad again at the end of this season simply because of the age of the current squad! I do not blame Jewell for all of this but what I do blame him for is having dubious judgement in the transfer market, dubious tactics and not having a clear plan B when things aren't working on the pitch. I want it to work for PJ and I wish him well but I have genuine concerns in the way our club is being managed. Too many broken promises and easy platitudes and not enough hard work, pride, skill and guile.
You just said it yourself what others like myself and ptc are trying to say JWM. Lo and behold WITHIN 18 MONTHS we were challenging for playoffs with a team PUT TOGETHER FOR PEANUTS. PJ is how long into his tenure and spent how much? If Royle wasn't given that much time what would have happened? Do you really think a manager can make a promotion winning team in one transfer window? You say there is no youth coming through but we just made bank on Wickham and Man U are looking at Rhodes which could net us another nest egg. Hyam, Carson and Joe Wight will be the next coming through so what's you point?
You say it's all about the next result and that we have a team full of old journeymen. Would it then be OK if PJ made a team of unexperienced youngsters and academy scholars who lost every week while they gained experience (the bigger picture you don't want to look at) You can't have both can you, you don't want to accept mediocrity but having a youthful team is no gaurantee to winning matches is it.
So where are the youth team players then SD in the first team? The likes of Hyam, O'Connor, Carson & Whyte? Why cant he see that 4 midfielders that all play in a similar way and have no pace will struggle against the quicker sides? Where is the plan B when we all know that the Diamond system can not be deployed against teams that play a pacy pressing game? With the team that has been assembled mainly old age pensioners in footballing terms and loanees PJ has basically gambled on one season. Is this really the long term thinking that we need? We made money on Wickham but in my opinion we should have kept him here for another season as we were under no pressure to sell when we did. This team has been assembled for a relatively small sum in transfer fees but we all know that the team will need to be radically changed again. I dont understand his thinking at times and some of the transfer dealings in the summer were quite frankly strange! But hey ho I still support the Town and I will be there on Saturday as usual.
I have never said that we should fill the entire team with Youth Players thanks for misrepresenting my views! The last few games since Pompey has told us that we are too slow all over the pitch and we have little penetration from midfield and are not providing our attackers with any decent crosses like we were beforehand. We need pace and a little youthful exhuberance will freshen things up and serve notice to the oldens that there is competition for places. Im not sure what's happened with Collins as he seems to be having a bloody nervous breakdown at the back. Jimmy has forgotton how to pass the ball and when he does he puts us in trouble! Shrug shoulders just my opinion and I hope for better against Donny.
But according to you JWM we are not allowed to think about a long term plan because this is a results business and we need to win. Pray tell us how we can assemble this utopian under 30 team who never lose. Remember, you are not allowed to spend more than 1.5million on a player as it has to be done on peanuts, so that puts Messi out of the picture. Oh yeah, you have to do it one transfer window too because we have already had 5 years of crap. I do agree with you that PJ has to either have the personnel in the starting eleven or on the bench to be able to change the system if neccessary. It was good to sell Wickham when we did, who knows if we would make that much off him in the future or if he would've come good for us. p.s I know you love the town so don't take all the above criticism personally mate.
In response to your last post I would just like to say that we are only slow in the running department. We have players who should be using their experience to be in the right place at the right time and let the ball do the running for them. I think what is most frustrating is that with the calibre of player we have we really should be doing a little better. I'm not sure if that's down to PJs tactics or not but like you say, we definitely need a plan B.
Well why not take a leaf out of dare I say it Crystal Palace and Millwall for starters. Both these teams cost next to nothing and yet they both played us off the park. In football the next result is always the most important and you can twist it as much as you like but it is a fact. One good result normally sparks off a good run of results and there the momentum builds. The problem with Town is that we gain a few good results and then we seem to fall apart inexplicably to teams that we should be beating. It has always been a roller coaster supporting Town as you never know what your going to get but what I can't accept is totally clueless performances that basically take the piss out of the fans that have spent their hard earned watching them! SD I dont take personally anything you say and wouldn't life be boring if we always agreed on everything? We both love Town and that's the main thing!
Agreed JWM. Up the Effin Town You know me, I never get malicious or descend into name calling, we are all townies after all.
Good chatting SD Now I'm just going outside with my baseball bat to take out some effin trick or treaters!
I agree 100% on J Royle. What a FANTASTIC job he did for us ! Magilton did WELL when he had limited money, however very BADLY when he had dosh. I remember in the 07/08 January transfer window. It was OBVIOUS we needed a left winger, yet he proceded to purchase 3 Cm's in Schumi / Norris + Quinn......... Why Ambrose wasn't convinced to come back on a permanent basis was a terrible idea too. We had Walters + Ambrose at one point, surely we could have gone somewhere with them two out wide...... Then Roy Keane...................................... Ah Keane ! The manager with zero people skills, shoving people in the reserves, no style of play and the worst manager in our history.... Rhodes going for peanuts sums up his shocking 2 years, how the board stuck by him is beyond me ! So for the next 6 months at least, I'm VERY HAPPY to have Jewell. Have to see how it goes. He's certainly better than Keane, thats for sure !
Summed up very well Westlake!! JWM I agree with what you said about Royle, I'm not one of those who question his time here as a manager, he did an outstanding job with the resources he had, infact the only manager I have been really unhappy with has been Keane and he took it to another level. I was merely saying that sometimes I think some fans who at the time he was incharge were complaining about his tactics and players he bought etc are now saying we played great attacking football under him and he did a great job. But I do not recall many fans being dissapointed when he left the club, there was alot of discontent towards him in the final few matches of his reign. And the football, he was probably the most attack minded manager we have had, but football in the purist sence is certainly wasn't, alot of the football we played under Jim was far better(until the final season). Royle's tactics were get it up to the strikers as quickly as possible and if the don't get it work from the 2nd ball that the midfield pick up, we certainly could play good football but we were extremely direct. JWM like San Diego says, you do talk alot of sense sometimes and I completely agree with you on alot of things but then sometimes you just completely contradict yourself!!! Although some of Jewells signings were/are questionable none of them appear to be a waste of money or bad players but perhaps I'm just used to the rubbish we had to put up with, with Keane. I agree with your comments with who Jewell has to put on the bench, I think we do need a bit more of a plan B. I would also say that although I am slightly dissapointed we sold Wickham as I think it would have been better for us and Wickham himself to stay for at least 1 more season, I can completely understand why we did it, it was good money for a player who may not fulfil his potential!! "In response to your last post I would just like to say that we are only slow in the running department. We have players who should be using their experience to be in the right place at the right time and let the ball do the running for them. I think what is most frustrating is that with the calibre of player we have we really should be doing a little better. I'm not sure if that's down to PJs tactics or not but like you say, we definitely need a plan B. " Completely agree with that last point SD, although we do have a problem with a lack of pace which in time should be addressed, I do not feel it should be a major problem especially with regard to the personel we have, who you would have thought with their experience and quality on the ball, should be keeping possession better and letting the ball do the work!!
Good summary Westlake and nicely followed up by PTC. As an overview it would appear that the more money we have available the less we look for a team and the more we looked for Players. Royles team were mainly youth players or others that had fallen out of the limelight and we revitalised them. The squad seemed like a team and the guy worked wonders for us. Magiltons early days were very similar and with the likes of Walters we continued the trend of bring in a 'hunger' and keeping the squad together as a team unit. Unfortunately the ME takeover led to a 'kids in a sweetshop' approach and it is one we have never really got away from. The amount of players we have signed since the ME takeover definately have higher profiles and some have been wonderful for the club, unfortunately the majority have either been below the standards that their price tag suggested or have been decent players but ones for which we had no need. During this period of signing bid name players we have let some very good ones or youth with potential walk out of the door. Take away the obvious names of Rhodes and Wickham and put the names Garvan and Trotter (who has about 5 assists in 2 matches now) into the frame, add the likes of David Wright, Walters (likely to have had bids in for him but his departure was definately hastened by RK) and even Stead (who was never a world beater but certainly done more for us than half his replacements) and you will see that potentially a very good team has left whilst we try to attract the bigger names. I think Jewell has replaced a lot of the unity and we are a happier club since his arrival but I do question why we have taken a sledgehammer to a team that when ME came in only needed tinkering with .
Good points tractorbhoy. And I agree with all of them. But alot of the response to the reasons behind this factor has largely one element to it, Roy Keane. Clearly not at fault for everything but to large aspect all the problems you point out with the club have largely been down to him ripping the club apart. As you say we appear to be pretty awful when we have alot of money to spend. This happened with both Burley and Magilton who IMO did pretty damn good jobs on limited funds. Royle never had the option of working with more funds and we will never know how this would have worked out how he would have done if he would have had more money, even though he did a monumental job with little money, I would question some of his purchases with money at Man City, he often bought big name players who I didn't overly rate. He was a bit of a wheeler dealer in that respect, but we will never know. Under Royle I would say a large deal of our success came from having Bent and Kuqi in the team for their weaknesses just having that kind of power, strength, pace and workrate would have caused any team in the world problems, then having Miller behind them also. But the rest of the team was made up of either players really toward the twilight of their career(even more so than our current team), journeymen and average youth team players, many of his transfers were questionable, although obviously he had little to work with so you can't really blame him for that. We really do have a better team now that we did then but he just got the best out an average bunch(bar Bent) of players and played to our strengths. Keane generally always had alot of money to spend and I think spent more than Jim, although last season the purse strings seem to be tightened but things still didn't get any better, so I geuss basically he was just rubbish with or without money!!! I would argue we definitely had a team under Jim but he also got some very talented players in for little money, all of who had a good work ethic aswell. But when the money came in this changed the dynamics completely and I think had a real adverse affect on the team. Jim also as we know targeted probably the wrong areas and I think his biggest mistakes were not getting in a LM and also his mindset changed, before ME came in we were playing to our strengths and afterwards Jim suddenly went negative and his tactics appeared to be set out to first and foremost stop the other team from playing rather than playing to our strengths. Things deteriorated and we only played well in 10 minute spells in matches and the tide appeared to turn against him, which just made things worse. But when he left we were in a very strong position, Jim hadn't damaged the team, he had certainly improved it and we only needed tweaking, a couple quality players to come in so we could really challenge for promotion the next season, ideally under a more experienced manager. The Roy Keane happened and the rest is history!!!!! Its crazy to think how much money we have spent over the past 4 years and the number of players that have come and gone. Leadbitter has only been here a couple of years yet is probably the player who has made the most appearences for the club here atm. There is not one player that he bought who I think what a great signing or that was worth the money and all of those names you mentioned Rhodes, Garvan, Trotter, Walters, Stead I wonder how they would be doing if we now had them under Jewell. Rhodes should never have been sold without giving him a chance and certainly not at the price we sold him for. Garvan was very hard done by under Keane and was blamed far more than any other player when he was actually one of the most influential players when he played, I'm annoyed he wasn't here a few more months because I think Jewell may have been the manager to really get him to fulfil his potential. Walters was playing pretty poor when we sold him(like the rest of the team) and at the time we thought it was a good price, but he has been superb for Stoke and at the time noone in our team was playing well, again it would have been good to see what Jewell could have done with him, I think we may have seen the best of him again. Trotter, I didn't like and I know Keane tried to sign him up on a contract so not going to have a go there. David Wright, was our most consistent player when told he would not be given another contract and IMO should have been our captain, not only that Keane did not sign another RB to replace him!!! Stead I was not too disapointed to see him go as there are far better players out there but once again he was decent and really unfairly treated by Keane, he was the only striker under Keane to go on any sort of scoring run, then he gets injured and subsequently sold!!! At the beginning of last season we had a very poor team, probably on high wages, alot of players with little talent but who worked hard and alot of loans making up our team, Jewell came in sent the majority of loan players back and then had to deal with at the end of the season alot of palyers who were out of contract(many of who probably would not be in the long term plans) but we needed to keep a few of them otherwise worse comes to worse we at least have some players to put out at the beggining of this season. Unfortunately only Delaney and Healey were the only players to accept the contract offer, IMO I think Jewell knowing the players he managed to get in now, prbably wouldn't have offered either a new contract but he didn't know who he could get in at the time. So at the beggining of the summer we basically had a squad that read: Barrett, Peters, O'Conner, Delaney, Leadbitter, Edwards, Wickham, Scotland, Martin, Priskin, Healey, Fulop, Hyam, Kennedy, Smith, Carson. Not one of those players had impressed really much under Keane. Now that team compared to the one Magilton left us is not even comparible, I'm not even sure that team would have been good enough to keep us in the division let alone compete for the playoffs and considering the money Keane spent that is terrible. Jewell needed to get players in, in every position in a short amount of time to even compete in this division and I'm sure he did not have enough time to really set a good scouting network up at the club yet because he was busy trying to help us avoid relegation, sort out contracts and other things, so he has now got alot of more experienced players in over a very short period of time, but they do all have quality and unlike Jim and Keane have improved our squad!!! His transfers may not be all about the long term but were put together on a relatively small amount of money considering the players we got in and the number of players. We now have a strong base to build upon and really build a team without hopefully just chucking money at the team and having a revolving door of players. I have confidence that Jewell will now do this and slowly build a strong team made up of a blend of proven/experienced players and younger players from lower leagues. Keane took a sledgehammer to Jim's team and Keane's team had already fallen apart by the time Jewell came in so he had to build a new one quickly. If Jewell does what I expect him to do, I'll be happy but if he continues to sign older players and radically change the team like Keane did I will be concerned but I believe Jewell knows what he is doing and has done well with what he has had at his disposal(although some of the results/performances should have been better) Patience is now the key (especially if you want to read my post!!!).
Like you, PTC, I hated every second of the RK days and the club is certainly a better place since Jewell came in. I dont agree with everything PJ has done but in general I am encouraged and it is way to early to make any predictions about his chances of success. Football is way too 'here and now' currently - I steady campaign with signs of progress is all I really want from this season. My only current concern really is how easy it is to turn us over. Both Southampton and Millwall are looking strong teams at the moment and we didnt deserve any points from these fixtures but I do worry that we conceded 4 or more against them.
what are your thoughts on the rumour royston is being lined up by leicester for their vacant managerial post? i nearly spat my coffee out laughing when i heard! still, thats another team you'll finish ahead of if it happens
Superman, Im amazed anyone is considering Keane, let alone someone with the ambitions of Leicester. Im no Sven fan but replacing him with Keane is like replacing foie gras with baked beans! Actually I hope it is true- will teach them a lesson after sacking a manager for no obvious reason - they will soon find out what bad management is!! You guys must be very happy with the way your season is going. I cant believe that Holt isnt a regular starter for you but you look fairly comfortable so far.
