So what do people think of the recent events at Manchester United, it's not racist in my opinion and if it is can someone explain to me why? Below is an article that more or less covers my thoughts, and if anyone remembers back 3-4 years ago I said it would not be long before chanting would be banned on the terraces, something people more or less would laugh as ridiculous to suggest at the time, and that was only no more than 4 years ago! Football has become social cleansed as deep as it can go, by Governments, Law makers, Football's Elite and Sky, naturally anyone that knows me also knows i do not want to see racism in football, but.... What’s the world coming to when you can’t insult a Scotsman without fear of being hauled before the beak? This isn’t a dystopian nightmare; it’s the reality of thin-skinned Britain in 2014. On Saturday 5 April, three Gillingham fans were arrested on suspicion of a ‘racially aggravated public-order offence’ after reportedly calling Rotherham manager Steve Evans a ‘fat Scottish ****er’ – or words to that effect. If the Gills fans are convicted, our society will have slid a little further down the slippery slope of intolerance. Should it be a crime to call someone a ‘fat Scottish ****er’? I don’t believe it should. I’d hope that Scots wouldn’t get their knickers in a twist over a bit of name-calling. However, while the phrase clearly isn’t a term of endearment, I can’t see how it is racist. Forget the dewy-eyed tosh of Braveheart; the truth is that the Scots are not an oppressed people. They’re not regarded as foreigners. They’re not treated as second-class citizens. They do not suffer employment discrimination. The ‘No Irish, no blacks’ signs that were once displayed by British landlords never applied to the Scots. Consequently, to call someone a ‘fat Scottish ****er’ isn’t an expression of xenophobic hostility, unlike racial insults such as ‘nigger’ or ‘paki’. It doesn’t reinforce the message that Scots ‘don’t belong here’. It’s just an insult. It’s no more racist than calling the Welsh ‘sheep shaggers’ or Scousers ‘hubcap thieves’. They won’t win prizes for wit or ingenuity, but many terrace taunts trade on regional stereotypes. In the context of a football stadium, these taunts are just ‘banter’. The insults are made in jest. Does anyone seriously believe in these stereotypes? I doubt it. Equally, I can’t imagine many fans on the receiving end are actually upset by the jibes. The problem with contemporary anti-racism is that this once-progressive struggle for equal rights has degenerated into a reactionary purge of inappropriate language. Little wonder that insulting other nationalities, regardless of whether they suffer discrimination, is now seen as racism. If insulting a Scotsman is deemed to be racist, one wonders what the language police will outlaw next. Will it be a crime to abuse footballers with ginger hair? Will football fans be nicked for perpetuating regional stereotypes? Will fans be prosecuted for referring to opposition fans as pikeys, inbreds or dole scroungers? You may laugh, but that is precisely what’s happening in Italy. Last summer, the Italian football federation (FIGC) introduced tough new sanctions to punish ‘territorial discrimination’ – insults aimed at fans from other regions of Italy. Both Juventus and Milan have been hit with partial stadium closures as punishment for anti-Neapolitan chants. The north-south divide has always been particularly pronounced in Italy. In the 1990 World Cup semi-final, Diego Maradona traded on the south’s outsider status by urging the Naples crowd to support Argentina against the Azzurri. ‘The Neapolitans must remember one thing’, Maradona said. ‘Italy makes it feel important one day of the year, but forgets about it the other 364.’ But while parochial identities remain strong in Italy, the trading of regional insults is largely theatrical and ironic – just as it is in Britain. Refreshingly, Italian fans have set aside their club allegiances to oppose these new restrictions. Even Napoli fans, who are often mocked for being impoverished and cholera-ridden, have demanded the right to be insulted. Last October, Napoli ultras unfurled a banner declaring ‘Napoli colera, e adesso chiudeteci la curva’ (Naples - cholera-sufferers. Now close our stand). Ultra groups from other clubs have also staged coordinated protests against the clampdown. Football fans in Britain should follow the laudable example of the Italian ultras. We need to stick up for our right to insult each other. Spurs fans defied the threat of prosecution for use of the word ‘yid’ by chanting ‘We’ll sing what we want’. It’s a maxim that we should apply to all forms of offensive chanting. We should defend the right of Gillingham fans to insult a Scotsman. And, while it might stick in our craw, we should also oppose the criminalisation of racist chants. Freedom of speech should have no strings attached. Insults and name-calling shouldn’t be prohibited no matter how loathsome the sentiments expressed. Does this mean that we should turn the other cheek to terrace racism? Certainly not. The approach I’d advocate is self-policing. Fan should take matters into their own hands. Confront the bigots, argue with them, drown them out with boos. But don’t call the cops. As I’ve frequently argued on spiked, once you outlaw one type of offensive speech, it becomes very difficult to draw the line. We start by making racist chanting unlawful. Next, we ban homophobic chants. Then Old Firm war songs. And now, as the Gillingham case illustrates, bog-standard terrace banter is criminalised. That’s how the illiberal logic of offence-seeking plays itself out. As I said, it’s a slippery slope. And, unless we make a stand, it will end in tyranny.
I understand where your coming from brb, whilst racism must be stamped out, we must maintain our freedoms. That said, is it the Scotsman that caused the offence or the fat ****er', it is already considered to be discrimination if you use someone's personal features to insult them (fat, thin, bald, ginger) I don't know where it will all end, I do think it's sad that because of the few bigots, the rest of us are also targeted.
WRONG ! When will you learn brb - you can't call him FAT.................................... AND unless you have proof of self 'abuse', other terms of endearment are not permitted. ................... although I would like the dictionary to broaden its' definition of a w@nker to incorporate other characteristics other than any physical 'procedure'. Sometimes the only appropriate description of a person is ' clot ' (( you do know I don't actually mean clot ))
Specifically with regard to so called racist abuse part of the problem in society generally is that there is no discrimination between what is said in fun, as a joke, and what is said truly in hate. One black person can call another black person ginger (anagram), but if a white person does the same, even though said black person might be a very close friend who knows what you mean and possibly even respects and understands the way you are using the word, then it's racist abuse. As far as football chants go, there are some that are really funny, well constructed and undoubtedly very close to the bone (nu pun intended), and no you probably wouldn't chant them on your own (except maybe in the bath or shower), but they are intended to be humorous. And most are forgotten after a short time anyway. As far as the Lukaku chant is concerned, I actually think it's not particularly well constructed or funny. But that's not a reason for stopping a fans chanting it. And neither is the fact that "It does perpetuate a racist stereotype" Will the North rise up against Gillingham fans for the "In the Northern slums" song? Which is one that I think is funny. As brb asked, do Gills fans really care that opposing fans make fun of the 'pikey' accusations that are levelled against us? In both cases almost certainly, no. Not least because the factual basis of the songs is actually incorrect. And so it goes on. Ah well, when the chants have to go through PC scrutineering before being sung at least we've got one that we can fall back on Play up Brompton Or maybe that'll get banned because it's not inclusive enough. But Steve Evans will still be a fat Scottish b****r
are the asterisks UGGE ? ( I'm sure he'd rather be called a w@nker ). On a more serious note - modern interpretation of certain terminology puts different meaning on words. The above two words are a point in case. I have no evidence that Steve Evans is a person who participates in the activities that will be illustrated in the dictionary definition of those words - and Mr. Evans could take action against anyone for slander -- or, in its' written form - libel ----- but - my argument would be that the aforementioned words are used as a derogatory form to express an opinion of the character of a person - to suggest that they are not a nice person. I think that Mr. Evans might struggle with all the evidence that is available. I'm sorry - I've just realised what I've done - I have tried to be semi- serious. I think I got confused after I saw that brb has become pedantic.
My mistake. I've left the original unedited, otherwise AR's post will be even more incomprehensible than usual
The trouble with you Tim is that you've spent too much time 'upnorth' - I know it's Thursday but - we are still OK to continue to stereotype aren't we ? ................ of course we are - anywhere north of Watford it will still be Wednesday !--- by the way Tim the Gills game is in two days time -not three ! https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...2n0dhQ&usg=AFQjCNGKkDSzbtfToLSRE0vbvY0A6_t3hA ( you know I don't mean anything nasty )
Ok, I get this one a bit more than the Man United one, so bear with me. The context of the reason stated 'People responding to the post suggested the banner could be seen as racist.' I believe this was a World Cup Qualifier - I assume therefore the match may be transmitted around the world. Therefore a banner stating 'Super White Army' could be depicted or translated as meaning 'White Supremacy' MAYBE! If this was a normal league game I would certainly be denouncing the stupidity of the FA as I did the Man United racist claim, however, I can see how the banner could be misinterpreted outside of the UK. Now here lays a problem in that Manchester United could claim to be more universal than the Lionesses but I stick with my original argument, however, on this second highlighted event, yes it is Tranmere Rovers nickname BUT it was not Tranmere Rovers playing ! So on this occasion I support the FA decision begrudgingly as it was an England event and as stated this was a one event cover up only.
Great post brb! Let's kick racism out of football ... but let's make sure that harmless banter stays in.
Right come on, own up, who started this thread After today's news, the irony In future can someone tell me to keep quiet
Just when you thought things couldn't possibly get worse - I'm feeling very, very sick - even at the thought that Scally thought it was a good idea to contemplate Evans. ........... actually it could be worse - we could have Evans in charge, Stimson & JE assisting. We could sign up JE-T & McCAMMON as our forward line etc. .......... who else would you hate to see back at the club ? .......... Smile - things could be worse - lo and behold, we did smile - and indeed things did get worse !
