Gills-man-Ant-Dog:3583927 said:
He has been great this season and Martin is a bit better aswell.
Matt Fish
- Thread starter alwaysright
- Start date
He has been great this season and Martin is a bit better aswell.
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brb
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I agree with Gills man Ant Dog.
Hoadie, you state Fish has been great this season and although judging from people's comments in the games that I missed there has been a marked improvement, I do not believe that makes him great this season.
I accept alwaysright's earleir opinion in the knowledge that he attends nearly all games.
However, if Fish is great then I reiterate that is not what I saw at Barnet. Noting alwaysright comment about the final ball needing to be worked on. Although for Joe Martin there has also been improvement, he would still not be my selection for left back. Good to see we are taking Joe Carter to Oxford.
I am sometimes in disbelief that because we have got off to an absolute flier of a start that some start thinking our players are some sort of League One/Championship quality (probably including MA if you want to believe the hype). Sorry but if they were they would not be at the Gills in todays greedy game!
They are doing the job they are paid to do, nothing more, nothing less. With the exception of Nelson in my eyes, that is where the quality currently ends.
I duly expect some crap in my direction for saying that but I will not pretend otherwise. I will support the players on the terraces but I need to see more quality from them, more than just organisation, to prove any greatness or better termed League One or Championship ability.
League Two is where we are and the table does not lie, however, for future success we still need to keep building on what we have done.
Therefore I think our top of the table position should be enjoyed but we should not allow it to cloud our judgements, in the quest for continued and future success.
Contract extended until summer 2015 according to the BBC website
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19820116
Plenty of time for opinions to be finalised!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19820116
Plenty of time for opinions to be finalised!
Gills-man-Ant-Dog please note my opinion of Fish ( including my opinion from last season ) - but I have seen all the league games this season and my opinions have been formed without reading anything that Martin Allen has said. Maybe others that are warming to Matt Fish have also seen enough games to be encouraged.
It is fascinating to read the comments of the shrinking numbers who still want to have a "go" at Fish despite the overwhelming evidence that he is now the most valuable asset on the club's books. Some people who made their minds up when a nervous junior broke into the team far too early last October, just could not get it when six months later he was developing into an outstanding player. Sure he misplaces a pass occasionally just like every other full back but increasingly he patrols disproportionately large areas of the pitch in both attack and defence taking off pressure from those around him. Not since Nosworthy has the club had a defender who can give fast wingers a 5 yard start and consistently outpace them and deliver decisive goal saving tackles.
But of course these are opinions, look at the facts. A young part timer at Dover has made himself a regular in the best defence in League 2 in a year is good going...FACT. A league 2 player with a year of his contract outstanding has been offered a new 2 year contract on the initiative of the club...REMARKABLE FACT AND AN INDICATOR THAT THE CLUB ANTICIPATE A BIG TRANSFER FEE IN THE FORSEEABLE FUTURE.
And as for the ludicrous assertion from man/ant/dog that improvements were being observed only because of comments by the manager, well a look at the dates will find the complete opposite to be the case. This thread commenced in mid September a good couple of weeks before Allen opened his mouth or Fish got offered his new contract.
But of course these are opinions, look at the facts. A young part timer at Dover has made himself a regular in the best defence in League 2 in a year is good going...FACT. A league 2 player with a year of his contract outstanding has been offered a new 2 year contract on the initiative of the club...REMARKABLE FACT AND AN INDICATOR THAT THE CLUB ANTICIPATE A BIG TRANSFER FEE IN THE FORSEEABLE FUTURE.
And as for the ludicrous assertion from man/ant/dog that improvements were being observed only because of comments by the manager, well a look at the dates will find the complete opposite to be the case. This thread commenced in mid September a good couple of weeks before Allen opened his mouth or Fish got offered his new contract.
Bristol well done for spotting Fish potential when most other supporters did not. But he is not our most valuable player. We have Payne,Lee, Whipdale and Dack who will all go for higher fees if they were sold. Davies and Essam could also by valuble assets.
Fish and Martin have both improved 100% from last season but Barrett and Nelson have been fantastic and been the best 2 players so far.
Fish and Martin have both improved 100% from last season but Barrett and Nelson have been fantastic and been the best 2 players so far.
I am expressing opinion now, rather than stating fact, but the limiting factor for players rising to a higher level is generally pace and running power even more so than skill. This is the main reason why Nosworthy, who had huge technical limitations, did so outstandingly well in the Premiership and why I think Fish has a chance of making it. looking at your other names I think Payne, for all his good points is nowhere near a good enough athlete to perform at anything above Championship level and really he has made little progress over the last three years. Lee and Whelpdale are impressive at league 2 level but frankly they were failiures at a higher level, they came on frees and they have done nothing to raise their value since. They are of course, high earners and teams at League 1/2 level are not going to pay their wages and a transfer fee. Dack has only played a few games and his value could go sky high but it is just too early to tell.
Your comments about Barrett and Nelson are well made and I agree they are having outstanding seasons and may well be the people making the biggest contribution to team performances but that does not necessarily mean they are worth anything. They are 33 and 31 respectively and relative failiures at a higher level for all their good points they are worthless in the transfer market.
So coming back to potential transfer fees I would argue that the only people worth worrying about are Davies, Fish, Payne and the one everyone has forgotten about...Miller. That does not mean they are the best players but they are the players who are capable of improving, have the essential pace to play at a higher level (Payne??) and are young enough to provide a return on investment. When Dack has played a dozen games he might join this select group.
Your comments about Barrett and Nelson are well made and I agree they are having outstanding seasons and may well be the people making the biggest contribution to team performances but that does not necessarily mean they are worth anything. They are 33 and 31 respectively and relative failiures at a higher level for all their good points they are worthless in the transfer market.
So coming back to potential transfer fees I would argue that the only people worth worrying about are Davies, Fish, Payne and the one everyone has forgotten about...Miller. That does not mean they are the best players but they are the players who are capable of improving, have the essential pace to play at a higher level (Payne??) and are young enough to provide a return on investment. When Dack has played a dozen games he might join this select group.
WOW!!
Bristol, the fact hat you have listed Matt Fish as the clubs best prospect makes me disregard anything you will ever say.
I'm not arguing hat he has improved, he could hardly get much worst, however by no means does the fact that someone has pace make them a good footballer and he simply isn't good enough. I have seen about 80% of all ga,ex this year so am not just judging on last season therefore I feel my opinion is more than valid.
Bristol, the fact hat you have listed Matt Fish as the clubs best prospect makes me disregard anything you will ever say.
I'm not arguing hat he has improved, he could hardly get much worst, however by no means does the fact that someone has pace make them a good footballer and he simply isn't good enough. I have seen about 80% of all ga,ex this year so am not just judging on last season therefore I feel my opinion is more than valid.
Gills-man-Ant-Dog
when I started this thread I did not intend that any member would go on to say that they would disregard future comments of another.( (bristol407).
I had written enough bad ( justified ) stuff about Fish in the past. I felt that, in the light of significant improvement, I wanted to be magnaminous enough to show my appreciation of the improvement. I still feel that Fish has a way to go - but I no longer feel that he is the liability that I dreaded everytime I heard the team announced.
I doubt that you could have hated Fish as much as I did last season.
now I am sure that bristol407 wont be too worried if you choose to disregard him - but this is a 'friendly' forum - we can have a diversity of opinion - in fact, it's diversity of opinion that usually guarantees the continuation of a debate.
<as long as you understand that I'm alwaysright>
when I started this thread I did not intend that any member would go on to say that they would disregard future comments of another.( (bristol407).
I had written enough bad ( justified ) stuff about Fish in the past. I felt that, in the light of significant improvement, I wanted to be magnaminous enough to show my appreciation of the improvement. I still feel that Fish has a way to go - but I no longer feel that he is the liability that I dreaded everytime I heard the team announced.
I doubt that you could have hated Fish as much as I did last season.
now I am sure that bristol407 wont be too worried if you choose to disregard him - but this is a 'friendly' forum - we can have a diversity of opinion - in fact, it's diversity of opinion that usually guarantees the continuation of a debate.
<as long as you understand that I'm alwaysright>
Everyone has different ways of expressing opinions and I don't take offence at the tone but I think for AntDog to have any credibility at all he needs to explain to us just why the club has given Fish a new contract when he had nearly a year left. I can only remember this happening with two other players...Jarvis and Nosworthy. I assume that AntDog reckons that the club has a sense of humour when it comes to business contracts or maybe everyone in the club just does not understand football!
B
brb
Guest
Gills-man-Ant-Dog
when I started this thread I did not intend that any member would go on to say that they would disregard future comments of another.( (bristol407).
I had written enough bad ( justified ) stuff about Fish in the past. I felt that, in the light of significant improvement, I wanted to be magnaminous enough to show my appreciation of the improvement. I still feel that Fish has a way to go - but I no longer feel that he is the liability that I dreaded everytime I heard the team announced.
I doubt that you could have hated Fish as much as I did last season.
now I am sure that bristol407 wont be too worried if you choose to disregard him - but this is a 'friendly' forum - we can have a diversity of opinion - in fact, it's diversity of opinion that usually guarantees the continuation of a debate.
<as long as you understand that I'm alwaysright>
This
Bristol - clearly Allen rates him, but then he also rates his son and I know enough about football to forge my own opinions on players. In all the years I have been supporting the gills I would guess that the majority of decisions the board has taken I have tended to not agree with.
On your theory of a player being a good prospect on the length of his contract, do you think mccammons 3 year deal was good business?
On your theory of a player being a good prospect on the length of his contract, do you think mccammons 3 year deal was good business?
AntDog. You are not reading carefully enough. My "theory" has nothing to do with length of contract, I am just pointing out that it is exceptional for a contract with a year left to be extended by the club. Assuming that the management has not turned into a charitable institution most people would reckon that it is a an attempt to raise the stakes in anticipation of transfer interest.
Going back to your earlier suggestion that I reckoned pace to be an indicator of footballing ability you have again failed to read the context of my remark which was that when it comes to players being good enough move up from league 2, it is only those with pace who make it to the Premiership.
Looking at your MacCammon comment brings a sad smile to my face. What was Dimson thinking of? End of his career, patchy fitness record, not a noted goalscorer BUT GOOD IN COURT. Lessons were not learned of course and I think I am right in saying Lee, Whelpdale and Kedwell have 3 year deals which seemed to be the only way of getting them to sign.
Going back to your earlier suggestion that I reckoned pace to be an indicator of footballing ability you have again failed to read the context of my remark which was that when it comes to players being good enough move up from league 2, it is only those with pace who make it to the Premiership.
Looking at your MacCammon comment brings a sad smile to my face. What was Dimson thinking of? End of his career, patchy fitness record, not a noted goalscorer BUT GOOD IN COURT. Lessons were not learned of course and I think I am right in saying Lee, Whelpdale and Kedwell have 3 year deals which seemed to be the only way of getting them to sign.
I definitely thought both Fish and Martin last season were the weak links and was dismayed to still see them in the full back positions at the start of this season but i agree both have improved enough for me not to "groan" when i see them playing those full back positions. By no means are either world beaters but both are capable of doing their jobs and i no longer view Martin as a Red card waiting to happen. Nelson and Barrett are the stand out players so far, but i dont agree Charlie Allen is only here cos of his dad, i like his energy.
Like in many arguments, the truth lies within the middle ground. I agree with much of what both GMAD and Bristol say. The fact that Fish (and to be honest the entire defence) are much ipmroved and the credit must go to Fish, for putting the effort into training, and to Allen for his orginastion which allows the team to bring the best out of both fullbacks.
Bristol is right to point out the lenght of the contract extension as how highly regarded Fish is in the club, but shouldn't be so dismissive of the fact the Keds et al have got similar length contracts. Either way it shows that the club is serious about keeping the squad together and building on the current success, unlike the slash and burn tactics used in the previous seasons.
Bristol is right to point out the lenght of the contract extension as how highly regarded Fish is in the club, but shouldn't be so dismissive of the fact the Keds et al have got similar length contracts. Either way it shows that the club is serious about keeping the squad together and building on the current success, unlike the slash and burn tactics used in the previous seasons.