Massive Weekend

Doc

Doc

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Good luck to Kalvin Phillips and England on Sunday.



There has been a lot of debate this week around our U23s and questions asked about are they ever going to be good enough. A lot of very valid questions too from the sceptical Wakey side of the debate, who say nobody will make it under Bielsa, to the more optimistic who say some will make it.


I have been an avid follower of the Academy over the last few years, so feel I can make some observations. Firstly the argument that nobody will break through is wrong, Kalvin Phillips shows this and not only has he broken through, he is now one of the best footballers in England. Kalvin was an easy one though, but to go back to Leeds being a successful Academy, you look at a conveyor belt of talent who made it to the top like: Cook, Delph, Smith, Lennon, Woodgate, Batty, Carson, Robinson, Viera, Harte, McPhail, Sheridan, Phillips, Kewill and now Struijk, but plenty more too.


Most of the above came through a system set up by Paul Hart which was basically scrapped under Bates. We all know the history so lets move forward to 2017 when Victor Orta arrived at the club. The facts are that Victor is one of the most highly respected Sporting Directors in world football. He chose to come to Leeds because he saw a project and also knew what would happen regarding ownership of the club. He did however have a limited budget and admits mistakes were made with the first team as he was told to buy as many new first team players as possible with the limited budget he had. This failed miserably and we are still having a player like LDB on the books today. However with regard to the Academy he had a plan to bring in some very good prospects and some were from around the world. Indeed today we have some top top prospects from Africa, the Far East, but back in 2017 and 2018 he was slowly building a dynamic U18 and U23 squad. also need to remember where we were in 2017. In 2018 the YEP wrote a piece about the 12 top kids who were destined to make it big:

  1. Paudie O’Connor
  2. Tom Pearce
  3. Oriol Rey
  4. Ryan Edmondson
  5. Sam Dalby
  6. Jack Clark
  7. Oliver Sarkic
  8. Bryce Hosannah
  9. Hugo Diaz
  10. Liam Kitching
  11. Kun
  12. Callum Nicell
We should remember that its not all over yet for these kids, but as yet none have gone on to the heights the YEP said they would. We should also remember that some of these kids dragged our U23s to a title win for the first time in donkeys. Oriol Rey played 30 times that season and was immense. Hugo Diaz was a class above as skipper and played CB, DM, AM and RB, Kun was every bit as good as Edmondson in front of goal but also played at 10. Rey is now in La Liga for Valladolid, Sarkic in L1 along with Pearce and O’Connor, and a couple are playing Championship football with Barnsley. We obviously await for Sam Dalby (Just left Watford) Clark, Kun, Hosannah, and Edmondson to show us what happens next.


Neil Redfern was asked about his Academy charges a few years ago when asked about players like Mowatt. He said we have a young 11yo boy called Jamie Shackelton who will be a top International. So far he has played 27 times for the first team, but as yet not recognised as breaking through under Bielsa? Jack Clark played 1st team, Lief Davies has played 9 times, Clarke Odour once then sold to Barnsley, Kun once and still on loan in Spain but was once one of the Top 20 Kids to watch out for in Europe, Jordan Stevens 3 times but now going to be released, Bogutsz once and now in Spain on loan again, Alfie twice and back out on loan again, Casey once and now sold to the Championship, Halme played a few and sold to the Championship and then you have Struijk and Meslier who are really through the wall. So 12 players who broke into the first team with 10 of them really not doing it so moved on. So plenty of chances handed out?


So does Bielsa give the kids a chance? The feeling from the kids is a big yes, but think they now realise you need to grab the chance he gives you with both hands straight away. Actual own Academy kids like Cresswell are destined to be top players whatever happens at Leeds. Casey away from Leeds will excel in the Championship. However we now have some top players from outside the club who have had top money spent on them, basically because we are now a Cat1 Status Academy, and the quality of opposition is streets ahead of what we were used to. 4 top kids bought last Summer won us the prestigious Premier league 2 League 2 title in our first season. Promotion now sees us against some of the worlds best kids who play for Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs etc so more additions will be required. So far we have bought McGurk and Miller to add to Gelhardt, Summerville, Greenwood and Drameh. Its going to be interesting to see how many kids are sold/released/retained, but I am betting that we will see some of the above get game time this coming season. Please remember that we are now in the Premier league so even harder to break through.


Alfie Hughes has just been handed his first pro contract at the club, so lets hope he grabs it. Only a 1 year deal so he needs to get sorted fast. 18yo Alfie played 20 times in midfield for the U18s last season and will go straight into Mark Jacksons U23 squad


Lets not forget about Ben white as a 16yo kid being told to leave Southampton in 2014. heartbroken but look at him now. Won a championship with Leeds and clubs bidding £50m for him as an England International
 
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Doc said:
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Good luck to Kalvin Phillips and England on Sunday.



There has been a lot of debate this week around our U23s and questions asked about are they ever going to be good enough. A lot of very valid questions too from the sceptical Wakey side of the debate, who say nobody will make it under Bielsa, to the more optimistic who say some will make it.


I have been an avid follower of the Academy over the last few years, so feel I can make some observations. Firstly the argument that nobody will break through is wrong, Kalvin Phillips shows this and not only has he broken through, he is now one of the best footballers in England. Kalvin was an easy one though, but to go back to Leeds being a successful Academy, you look at a conveyor belt of talent who made it to the top like: Cook, Delph, Smith, Lennon, Woodgate, Batty, Carson, Robinson, Viera, Harte, McPhail, Sheridan, Phillips, Kewill and now Struijk, but plenty more too.


Most of the above came through a system set up by Paul Hart which was basically scrapped under Bates. We all know the history so lets move forward to 2017 when Victor Orta arrived at the club. The facts are that Victor is one of the most highly respected Sporting Directors in world football. He chose to come to Leeds because he saw a project and also knew what would happen regarding ownership of the club. He did however have a limited budget and admits mistakes were made with the first team as he was told to buy as many new first team players as possible with the limited budget he had. This failed miserably and we are still having a player like LDB on the books today. However with regard to the Academy he had a plan to bring in some very good prospects and some were from around the world. Indeed today we have some top top prospects from Africa, the Far East, but back in 2017 and 2018 he was slowly building a dynamic U18 and U23 squad. also need to remember where we were in 2017. In 2018 the YEP wrote a piece about the 12 top kids who were destined to make it big:

  1. Paudie O’Connor
  2. Tom Pearce
  3. Oriol Rey
  4. Ryan Edmondson
  5. Sam Dalby
  6. Jack Clark
  7. Oliver Sarkic
  8. Bryce Hosannah
  9. Hugo Diaz
  10. Liam Kitching
  11. Kun
  12. Callum Nicell
We should remember that its not all over yet for these kids, but as yet none have gone on to the heights the YEP said they would. We should also remember that some of these kids dragged our U23s to a title win for the first time in donkeys. Oriol Rey played 30 times that season and was immense. Hugo Diaz was a class above as skipper and played CB, DM, AM and RB, Kun was every bit as good as Edmondson in front of goal but also played at 10. Rey is now in La Liga for Valladolid, Sarkic in L1 along with Pearce and O’Connor, and a couple are playing Championship football with Barnsley. We obviously await for Sam Dalby (Just left Watford) Clark, Kun, Hosannah, and Edmondson to show us what happens next.


Neil Redfern was asked about his Academy charges a few years ago when asked about players like Mowatt. He said we have a young 11yo boy called Jamie Shackelton who will be a top International. So far he has played 27 times for the first team, but as yet not recognised as breaking through under Bielsa? Jack Clark played 1st team, Lief Davies has played 9 times, Clarke Odour once then sold to Barnsley, Kun once and still on loan in Spain but was once one of the Top 20 Kids to watch out for in Europe, Jordan Stevens 3 times but now going to be released, Bogutsz once and now in Spain on loan again, Alfie twice and back out on loan again, Casey once and now sold to the Championship, Halme played a few and sold to the Championship and then you have Struijk and Meslier who are really through the wall. So 12 players who broke into the first team with 10 of them really not doing it so moved on. So plenty of chances handed out?


So does Bielsa give the kids a chance? The feeling from the kids is a big yes, but think they now realise you need to grab the chance he gives you with both hands straight away. Actual own Academy kids like Cresswell are destined to be top players whatever happens at Leeds. Casey away from Leeds will excel in the Championship. However we now have some top players from outside the club who have had top money spent on them, basically because we are now a Cat1 Status Academy, and the quality of opposition is streets ahead of what we were used to. 4 top kids bought last Summer won us the prestigious Premier league 2 League 2 title in our first season. Promotion now sees us against some of the worlds best kids who play for Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs etc so more additions will be required. So far we have bought McGurk and Miller to add to Gelhardt, Summerville, Greenwood and Drameh. Its going to be interesting to see how many kids are sold/released/retained, but I am betting that we will see some of the above get game time this coming season. Please remember that we are now in the Premier league so even harder to break through.


Alfie Hughes has just been handed his first pro contract at the club, so lets hope he grabs it. Only a 1 year deal so he needs to get sorted fast. 18yo Alfie played 20 times in midfield for the U18s last season and will go straight into Mark Jacksons U23 squad


Lets not forget about Ben white as a 16yo kid being told to leave Southampton in 2014. heartbroken but look at him now. Won a championship with Leeds and clubs bidding £50m for him as an England International
Click to expand...
You have put a lot of work into that Doc, well done, top thread :emoticon-0148-yes:
 
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Good Post Doc.
The thing with the young lads they all grow at different rates. Some are cracking 16-18 year olds and outshine their team mates because they are physically taller and much stronger with their growth rate. then some of these team mates growing at a slower rate catch these 15-18 year old prospects up and could end up being the prospects when they become men at around 20-21
We have seen it all since Hart and Redders.
Now we are in the Prem I'm a believer in the loaning out. You have to be special to go straight into a Prem team straight from a u23 side.
Even proven day in day out Championship players find the step up hard. so someone making a jump from no League football or a handful of games to Premier League has to be a massive eye opener. not only on the pitch but also dealing with the outside stuff crowds and media they are all Newbies to it all.
Yes some will grasp it like a fish to water, some will freeze with the pressures.

I'm actually loving the way Bielsa is doing it. he's getting the u23's to train with the 1st team so the whole bunch get know each other so when that time does come to sit on the bench these u23's are not feeling out of place or star struck.
not only that they are soaking up real Football life getting that feel of being part of the matchday team. the crowds (obviously not last season with covid)
These U23's will have learned a lot from last season even with not getting on the game time.

I believe like yourself some of these kids will make it, I also believe like you that some will get game time this season.
I don't see 2 or 3 playing at the same time. but, I do see us blooding a few trying to blend them in with 15-20 min cameo's
then it's up to them to show the world who they are because when your in the Prem League all eyes are on you, every kick, every pass, every tackle.
Even their first game could make or break them look at Alan Smith comes on late on his debut scores a goal at Anfield he is instantly loved. on the other hand One bad tackle, one mistake. the fickle Leeds fans will go for the kids throat.
I believe in some of these young guns but who am I to say they will make it or not. I have every trust in Bielsa and his staff as they will know so much more than any of us seeing them on a daily basis.
 
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Siddas is spot on with all his points. All I'd add is what is the definition of making it. You only have to do the maths - if you say the average 1st team footballer is aged between 21 - 31(for arguments) sake that means there's an 11 year span or age groups in a professional team... you essentially go from being age graded to taking the place of the best of the last 11 years... on averages thats one lad from every age group that would make it... if you didn't buy any players in. Sure the 23’s covers a group of age groups but the point is it's a long shot for all of them, to make it anywhere... never mind to a top half premier league team.

I never had a beef with Orta's U23 strategy excepting it maybe over-egged the import pudding - it was a model he learnt at Seville. My beef was he went OTT on it in the first year, when the money was need in the first team and we weren't flush with cash to prioritise it. Whichever, we all love our Vic now.
 
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Another excellent article, Doc. Can't ever remember reading one as good on NewsNow - ever. So, I'm keeping up the pressure on you to develop your new career, & on the basis of these 'weekenders', you should smash it. So stop being so 'kin shy & get your finger out! Pep talk over. :D

One thing this thread has generated for me is the thought that perhaps many of our u23s don't make it simply because they're not flexible enough for a Bielsa team. By that I mean that a lad might be a cracking RB, but his failure to nail, say, RW or CB too means that he cannot progress into a Bielsa team. He may well go on to play RB for england, but never RB for Bielsa, as he doesn't have that adaptability. Just a thought I'm toying with - I have no data. Thoughts?
 
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Hmmm bit short on content for me Doc. I am going to need a few thousand more words to convinve me
Shakleton will not make it at Leeds and seems to not stay fit. Let's see who victor gets for spare goalie with the £2 he has left after the clown sucks the club dry.
 
Whitejock said:
Another excellent article, Doc. Can't ever remember reading one as good on NewsNow - ever. So, I'm keeping up the pressure on you to develop your new career, & on the basis of these 'weekenders', you should smash it. So stop being so 'kin shy & get your finger out! Pep talk over. :D

One thing this thread has generated for me is the thought that perhaps many of our u23s don't make it simply because they're not flexible enough for a Bielsa team. By that I mean that a lad might be a cracking RB, but his failure to nail, say, RW or CB too means that he cannot progress into a Bielsa team. He may well go on to play RB for england, but never RB for Bielsa, as he doesn't have that adaptability. Just a thought I'm toying with - I have no data. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Some good points Neil, but would only add the name Niall Huggins who wasnt mentioned in this piece. Remember he played for the first team in 3 different positions in his first match for Bielsa. He got rave reviews because he covered all 3 positions with ease. He is now 21 a fantastically skilled LB, LWB, LW, AM. For me one of the stars of last seasons triumphant 23 team. Given a long extension on his contract and now basically binned. I can only assume Bielsa makes a choice for him, the club and the player. Casey for example has been on the first team bench all season. Played one game and has built a great reputation as a sold CB. Bielsa looks at his CB choices and says sorry Olly Inthink you’re great but you cannot get into the 1st team because I have 4 Internationals ahead of you. I am going to write you a reference and get you a move for your own career…… I think he has decided that Huggins will not get past Junior or Harrison and is going to bring in another LW so you need to move for your own sake?
 
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Doc said:
Some good points Neil, but would only add the name Niall Huggins who wasnt mentioned in this piece. Remember he played for the first team in 3 different positions in his first match for Bielsa. He got rave reviews because he covered all 3 positions with ease. He is now 21 a fantastically skilled LB, LWB, LW, AM. For me one of the stars of last seasons triumphant 23 team. Given a long extension on his contract and now basically binned. I can only assume Bielsa makes a choice for him, the club and the player. Casey for example has been on the first team bench all season. Played one game and has built a great reputation as a sold CB. Bielsa looks at his CB choices and says sorry Olly Inthink you’re great but you cannot get into the 1st team because I have 4 Internationals ahead of you. I am going to write you a reference and get you a move for your own career…… I think he has decided that Huggins will not get past Junior or Harrison and is going to bring in another LW so you need to move for your own sake?
Click to expand...
Good point. Huggins is anomalous to my point, isn't he? I was disappointed by that one too. Who knows what the reasoning was to get rid. Would love to find out. Might have been a non-footballing reason too, I suppose. Bet young Leif is silently pleased, though!
 
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Whitejock said:
Good point. Huggins is anomalous to my point, isn't he? I was disappointed by that one too. Who knows what the reasoning was to get rid. Would love to find out. Might have been a non-footballing reason too, I suppose. Bet young Leif is silently pleased, though!
Click to expand...
Davies was another one who went from”Good Davies” to going backwards last season. He started to feature for the 23s late in the season and to be fair showed what he can do. At his age I expect him to either be binned or given a chance again? If we bring in Cornet he will be moved on as Cornet is a winger who can do LB and LWB too, which means Davies surplus like Huggins?
 
Today Joe Snowdon also signed his first pro contract with the club and 17yo Joe will go into Mark Jacksons U23 squad. Joe played 16 times last season for the U18s as an AM. Joe joins 18yo Alfie Hughes who also got his first pro gig and joins the U23s. Alfie played 20 times last season as an AM for the U18s

2 in along with Miller and McGurk means some out?
 
Theres an interesting twist on the Kiko story going around in Spain. Kiko is deffo joining Elche but they are trying to do a deal with Orta to buy Kiko as long as Leeds also loan them 3 players from the Academy. Failing that Kiko will only go on loan for a season and Leeds to pay a portion of his wages. If true this would be a good move for 3 U23s from last season who need experience. Plus having 3 mates together at a club would help. Could be great for Huggins, Gotts and Shaks for example?
 
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Doc said:
Theres an interesting twist on the Kiko story going around in Spain. Kiko is deffo joining Elche but they are trying to do a deal with Orta to buy Kiko as long as Leeds also loan them 3 players from the Academy. Failing that Kiko will only go on loan for a season and Leeds to pay a portion of his wages. If true this would be a good move for 3 U23s from last season who need experience. Plus having 3 mates together at a club would help. Could be great for Huggins, Gotts and Shaks for example?
Click to expand...

Win/win I'd say.

As long as they are played
 
Doc said:
Theres an interesting twist on the Kiko story going around in Spain. Kiko is deffo joining Elche but they are trying to do a deal with Orta to buy Kiko as long as Leeds also loan them 3 players from the Academy. Failing that Kiko will only go on loan for a season and Leeds to pay a portion of his wages. If true this would be a good move for 3 U23s from last season who need experience. Plus having 3 mates together at a club would help. Could be great for Huggins, Gotts and Shaks for example?
Click to expand...
Aren't shakleton and gotts vertically challenged?. Plus it's 3 loans then i think they would like wee jimmy and or drameh/greenwood/gelherdt.
 
So far we know the coub have spiken to Max Cornet, his agent and his club have confirmed they have been in contact. We also know we have spiken to PSV about Madueke and now this…. Are we waiting to see which one bites first?
Fabrizio Romano: Leeds United actively working on Noa Lang deal
Leeds United are still working on a deal to sign Dutch winger Noa Lang from Club Brugge, according to Italian journalist Fabrizio Romano.

The renowned transfer guru delivered an update on the Premier League side’s pursuit of the 22-year-old on his Twitch account on Friday night [09/07/21].
 
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