Off Topic Mali attack

Its why I never worried about the likes of Iran getting nukes...they full well know that Western powers wouldnt blink about responding with obliteration to what could only be a limited nuclear attack. The US has the power to literally level a country without using one nuke...no worry about radiation...
 
DirtyKlopp said:
Its why I never worried about the likes of Iran getting nukes...they full well know that Western powers wouldnt blink about responding with obliteration to what could only be a limited nuclear attack. The US has the power to literally level a country without using one nuke...no worry about radiation...
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Iran is the Lallana of the middle east. You can't really trust it to do the right thing, but it takes a lot more blame than it deserves.
 
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Does anyone seriously think that Russia was over-flying Turkey (if at all) to test its defences? Arse. Turkey has been playing a double game with ISIS and the other Syrian rebels for years now. Islamafascists, have been dobbing in and out across the border with Turkey's connivance for the duration of this 'war'.

Russia are not the good guys in all this dirty war - but neither, ffs, are Turkey. ISIS could have been wiped out years ago, had Turkey REALLY wanted it. Well. wipe them out now, hold our noses and put Assad back in (wish we'd have left Saddam alone, tbh) and then ask ourselves just whose side is Turkey REALLY on, when push comes to shove?

Alternatively, just leave the whole Middle-East to get on with it. Hopefully the Saudis will get their's in that conflagration. I trust them less than I trust the Turks.
 
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donga kloppo said:
Does anyone seriously think that Russia was over-flying Turkey (if at all) to test its defences?
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Only a handful of people know their true motivation in this instance. They certainly do similar things all over Europe all the time. Especially since Crimea. (but even before)


In this case it might not have been about testing defences but they certainly knew what they were doing. The technology is way too advanced these days for them to have flown into Turkey by accident.

They were obviously given instructions to ignore Turkey's requests to leave too or they would have left.

Turkey has every right to defend its airspace against repeat violations: as does Russia if Western planes violated their space.
 
Milk! said:
Only a handful of people know their true motivation in this instance. They certainly do similar things all over Europe all the time. Especially since Crimea. (but even before)


In this case it might not have been about testing defences but they certainly knew what they were doing. The technology is way too advanced these days for them to have flown into Turkey by accident.

They were obviously given instructions to ignore Turkey's requests to leave too or they would have left.
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Maybe, or maybe it was Turkey making a statement that would sound with their ISIS cohorts?

Either way it's a ****ing mess
 
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Tobes said:
Maybe, or maybe it was Turkey making a statement that would sound with their ISIS cohorts?

Either way it's a ****ing mess
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I doubt Turkey would be supporting ISIS. ISIS wants Turkey destroyed. More likely if you're going to posit a theory along those lines that Turkey would protect ethnic Turks living in Syria.

ISIS can't be at peace and can't make treaties with other nations. To do so goes against their core religious beliefs and would result in the leaders being replaced.

Turkey supporting ISIS I don't believe for a second. Ethnic Turks... Feasible.
 
Are we supposed to go to war to protect Turkey over this? Don't think so. ISIS are their allies - get them to save them from the consequences of their bullshit.
 
Milk! said:
I doubt Turkey would be supporting ISIS. ISIS wants Turkey destroyed. More likely if you're going to posit a theory along those lines that Turkey would protect ethnic Turks living in Syria.

ISIS can't be at peace and can't make treaties with other nations. To do so goes against their core religious beliefs and would result in the leaders being replaced.

Turkey supporting ISIS I don't believe for a second. Ethnic Turks... Feasible.
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Nonsense. They prefer them to Assad, for sure. Turkey has tied itself into knots over its southern border, now it's unravelling. **** them.
 
Milk! said:
I doubt Turkey would be supporting ISIS. ISIS wants Turkey destroyed. More likely if you're going to posit a theory along those lines that Turkey would protect ethnic Turks living in Syria.

ISIS can't be at peace and can't make treaties with other nations. To do so goes against their core religious beliefs and would result in the leaders being replaced.

Turkey supporting ISIS I don't believe for a second. Ethnic Turks... Feasible.
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You really need to read up on Turkeys relationship with Syrian army exiles and how they trained them in Turkey together with holding discussions about assisting with regime change in Syria with militants.

They've been supporting ISIS for 3 years mate
 
donga kloppo said:
Nonsense. They prefer them to Assad, for sure. Turkey has tied itself into knots over its southern border, now it's unravelling. **** them.
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They certainly wouldn't. Assad is an Asshat but ISIS would be far worse for them. Ideologically Turkey is far worse of an enemy than the West is for ISIS.

You can't think of ISIS as either a state or a random religious extremist group.

The whole point of declaring a Caliphate is to say they are the authority in Islam. According to their beliefs (and many Muslims) it is against their religion to not live in a Caliphate if one exists. Fortunately most Muslims don't see ISIS as legitimate.

Turkey being an Islamic state outside of their control is enemy #1. ISIS hates Muslims more than they do Christians. Its why we haven't seen many attacks from them until recently.

The other thing is. ISIS can never be at peace. According to their beliefs they are the start of the apocalypse. They see their goal as leading a holy war (they believe they will end up at Jerusalem with just a few men left and then be saved.)

To make peace with another state or establish a peaceful border goes against there religion. They don't want peace. They want war... And they even don't mind losing as that means the apocalypse is closer at hand.


So... Its impossible ISIS can ever make peace with any nation or maintain a peacable border. To do so goes against their reason for being.

ISIS is everyone's enemy. Especially Turkey's.
 
DirtyKlopp said:
Its why I never worried about the likes of Iran getting nukes...they full well know that Western powers wouldnt blink about responding with obliteration to what could only be a limited nuclear attack. The US has the power to literally level a country without using one nuke...no worry about radiation...
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A bizarre outcome, if Iran could get along with Israel, would be a secure (or slightly more stable) Middle east. At least we know where Iran is coming from - Turkey and, especially, Saudi Arabia, have no interest in a settled region, it's becoming more obvious.
 
Tobes said:
You really need to read up on Turkeys relationship with Syrian army exiles and how they trained them in Turkey together with holding discussions about assisting with regime change in Syria with militants.

They've been supporting ISIS for 3 years mate
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Early on they supported anyone who would destabilise Assad. Not anymore. Certainly not since the Caliphate was declared.

I think they realised they ****ed up a while ago.
 
Milk! said:
They certainly wouldn't. Assad is an Asshat but ISIS would be far worse for them. Ideologically Turkey is far worse of an enemy than the West is for ISIS.

You can't think of ISIS as either a state or a random religious extremist group.

The whole point of declaring a Caliphate is to say they are the authority in Islam. According to their beliefs (and many Muslims) it is against their religion to not live in a Caliphate if one exists. Fortunately most Muslims don't see ISIS as legitimate.

Turkey being an Islamic state outside of their control is enemy #1. ISIS hates Muslims more than they do Christians. Its why we haven't seen many attacks from them until recently.

The other thing is. ISIS can never be at peace. According to their beliefs they are the start of the apocalypse. They see their goal as leading a holy war (they believe they will end up at Jerusalem with just a few men left and then be saved.)

To make peace with another state or establish a peaceful border goes against there religion. They don't want peace. They want war... And they even don't mind losing as that means the apocalypse is closer at hand.


So... Its impossible ISIS can ever make peace with any nation or maintain a peacable border. To do so goes against their reason for being.

ISIS is everyone's enemy. Especially Turkey's.
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So ISIS is the bulwark to Turkey what Hitler was to the West (or some factions, anyway) in the 30's - a useful tool to use against their prceived enemies (in that case it being the Soviet Union). In both cases they found they had a tiger by the tail.
 
Milk! said:
Early on they supported anyone who would destabilise Assad. Not anymore. Certainly not since the Caliphate was declared.

I think they realised they ****ed up a while ago.
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Yet they've still, right up until now, allowed various rebel groups (including ISIS) to traipse back and forward across their border at will.
 
donga kloppo said:
Yet they've still, right up until now, allowed various rebel groups (including ISIS) to traipse back and forward across their border at will.
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They've got their own local agenda like everyone else.

Upsetting the status quo of Syria.
Making sure Kurds don't become too powerful.
Protecting Turks that live in Syria.
 
Turkey buys IS oil through Kurdistan as does Iran. Also the idea of Turkey being a secular Islamic democracy is simplistic...there are definite tensions like Saudi. They have govt funded Dept for Religious affairs ran by and for Sunni Muslims who's influence has grown.

Its yet another bizarre situation where a NATO ally is funding the supposed enemy, with a significant % of the population that has at least sympathies with IS and who is attacking Kurdish forces who have been supplied and supported on the ground by NATO countries special forces.
 
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Turkey itself doesn't buy IS oil. Turkish villagers do. There is a distinction.

Turkey does not support IS (even if they don't do everything they can to stop it).

Even the People that buy the oil probably don't do it for political reasons. They just want cheap oil and either are uneducated as to the origins or don't care.

It's like your average Westerner doesn't hate farm animals... We just look the other way whilst they get butchered and prepared.

ISIS oil is the chicken leg fried at KFC and the Turks are the Gerrez's that eat them.
 
Milk! said:
Turkey itself doesn't buy IS oil. Turkish villagers do. There is a distinction.

Turkey does not support IS (even if they don't do everything they can to stop it).

Even the People that buy the oil probably don't do it for political reasons. They just want cheap oil and either are uneducated as to the origins or don't care.

It's like your average Westerner doesn't hate farm animals... We just look the other way whilst they get butchered and prepared.

ISIS oil is the chicken leg fried at KFC and the Turks are the Gerrez's that eat them.
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Lol...tbf i've done a bit more reading and it does appear Turkey has attempted to stamp down on the oil smuggling.
 
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