Match Day Thread LIVERPOOL V ASTON VILLA

That's an interesting thing.
Not being in the CL is going to hurt FSG more than the club itself. FSG making money from the club demands the need for the greatest exposure the club can have.
The CL obviously provides huge opportunities to make money outside of the actual football and prize money.

Bottom line is FSG can't make as much money without CL so they'll need to make sure the club can achieve top4 next season, only way to do that is through transfers.
Its why Arsenal have spent so much over the last 5 years, a desperate attempt to get back into the CL as it makes owners richer.

 

I think it'll push them into doing something. Not being in the CL will hurt the clubs valuation and, let's be honest, that's all their really bothered about.

 

So you reckon a new manager next season then ?

 

We're talking about Liverpool mate

 

I know

 

Not sure. I think they knew a big beast was out there last Autumn, hence the sale announcement- and so did United too, hence them stealing their thunder. Now theyve been gazumped, I dont think there's anyone else atm who'd meet their valuation anyway, so they may as well sit on it and do a Mike Ashley until someone , at some stage meets their valuation, knowing that whatever happens theyve made tenfold on their initial investment

 

You may well get the Arabs chasing us.
The Glazers keep moving the goal posts and even though they want a higher price they still want to retain some ownership to continue milking the cash cow.
Arabs have plenty of money but they are not stupid and will not be played.

 

good. This season needs to be a big wake up call for everyone at the club.

the owners can’t half arse investment. This squad now needs several players, which could have been avoided had we recruited better over the last few years

And a big wake up call for Klopp in that he cannot keep the same players for years and years and not expect any drop off in quality. His loyalty to players is one of his biggest strengths and is crucial in being able to extract every last drop of quality out of them. But emotion and loyalty cannot be part of business / contract / financial decisions.

it’s very encouraging listening to Milner saying that Klopp wanted to keep him but the club overruled the decision. I just hope that this is a sign that Klopp has now lost that power he got after winning the league and we go back to making good decisions on and off the pitch

 

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Lot of people say about getting ex players in var and stuff and generwlly against it as not trained and even then will still disagree on things.

But this is where a players perspective would be valuable. As every single pundit has said that he’s clearly playing the ball. As a player you can just tell, he shoves his leg up to do it.

But referees don’t have that experience to be able to make that judgement call

 

I sense the hand of Webb in this - he was in the stand in front of a screen, wired up and in contact with Stockley Park - he can't help himself. But okay, let's look at this rather facetious and uninformed argument about what a "reflex" action is (and I have to state that I said this last June with the Fab decision in the CL final, and Milner at City in the CL qf in 2018). You cannot on one hand (no pun intended) send Reece James off for handling the ball on the line as he did for Chelsea against us some time back, then airily dismiss the actions of Konsa, Fab and Milly as "reflex actions" as if they were sneezing or blinking.

As I said in the Twitter thread, they don't seem to have any understanding of that 0.2-second gap between the subconscious and the conscious. Saving a penalty, kicking a ball off the line, backheeling a deflection into the net in a crowded goalmouth - football, like tennis, boxing, motor racing etc is not like snooker or darts or bowls, and it involves 'unthinking' reactions that you train your body today when you practice the game. If somebody, as Konsa or Milner, makes a movement towards the ball it's deliberate, every bit as much as swiping the ball with your hand in the air when it looks like you're missing a header. Utterly bizarre to categorise the same movement made towards the ball in handling cases as deliberate, yet when it's done with your leg in an offside case it's 'reflex - what about the umpteen times defenders have rightly been penalised with a penalty when a defender has tricked and swerved past them in the box and they've 'instinctively' stuck out a foot and tripped them up? Again, they haven't really thought about it, but a pen should rightly be given.

 

A lot of football is instinct and that’s what separates the great players from the good and the good from the poor in that their instincts of where to be to score a goal as better than others as one example.

Heck even making a block is deliberate action. Otherwise all those ‘player x made most blocks in this game’ are pointless as you’re essentially saying it’s pure luck that the player was in the right position, rather than using their experience and instincts to get in the right position to make that block.

 

It's also being missed that Konsa tried to block the ball to stop Diaz's header going back past him to a Liverpool player who would have had a shot on an open goal from six yards. It was, in fact, a good, instinctive, 'reflex' block that just happened to go to Virgil instead of going out for a corner. As you say, had he done that on the goalline and saved a goal he'd be complimented for his quick reflexes. Absolutely nobody would say 'You didn't mean that though'. And had he used his arm rather than his leg it would have been a pen and probably a sending-off, and nobody would have argued.

Let's be honest, here's what happened - Howard Webb saw a chance to intervene and show how fandabbydozy VAR is, and, coincidentally, stick a metaphorical fork in Liverpool's eye. And given the statement the PGMOL have put out in the last hour justifying all this I think we can expect a lot, lot more of this to come during Mr Webb's tenure. Winter, as they say, is ****ing coming.

 

90% of problems are being created by tinkering imo.

I might be mad but in ye olden days football was tough to watch when tony adam stood there for 90mins with hand i nthe air and won titles doing do.

but offside was bloody clear.

We have overcomplicated the whole thing.

same for pens. we have rules that are just about interpretable anyway any ref feels on any given day.

"did he mean to touch the ball and as a result play vvd on" I mean what the actual **** kind of logic is at play there?

Was VVD OFFSIDE when the ball was played. not when the ball was touched, not when the ball was received.

this thing where you can run in and be off but "not involved" is 90% of the issue. yes its grossly unfair to stick the flag up cos 1 out of 4 players is offside but was never getting the ball bit the thing is now everybody is ****ing offside bar the one putting it in the net!

hence total confusion.

 

Indeed. They took intent out of serious foul play because firstly we don't have a window into the souls of players. But secondly, recklessness is almost inherently not a conscious act - if you take Pickford's assault on Virgil, for instance, the ****ing loon was trying to block Virgil with every limb at his disposal, off the ground and uncontrolled. Just a pity that the much-overrated Michael Oliver didn't actually know the rule of serious foul play, something he admitted three months later and tried to quietly slip out in the S*n believing that no Scousers would read it in there.

 

In any other game IMO Mings walks for that kind of challenge he made on saturday.

If the game was on UK TV live IMO he walks as well (IMO it would not have been that ref on a UK mainstream tv game cos of politics)

The fact is klopp ran at that guy and created an issue for himself. guess what, no favours for you mate.

Its really that simple, you either play the game or you don't. klopp used to be buddy buddy laughing and joking with 4th officals who were all refs and that was all fine but for past 2 years he's just been a bit ofa grump and annoying them. well guess what?

IMo klopp has had quite a long honeymoon in england but its well and truely over and the press do it, he gives it back, same as mourinho used to. its that simple.

When things are all going your way everyone raises you up. the second they decide you are up they tear at you to get you down. klopp is firmly in the grumpy old man cmap with press, pundits and refs.

Its a no win imo.

 

It's not about 'favours' though is it. It's about applying the rules equally and fairly whether you like the manager or not. Refereeing a game properly doesn't involve doing anybody any favours. The correct decision is the correct decision.

The biggest problem as I see it was that VAR got involved at all. It wasn't a clear and obvious error.

 

You don't have to have played at a high level to know he was attempting to play the ball. Most referees are failed players so will have some experience. To claim he didn't intentionally play the ball is just pure 100% bull crap imo

 

but reffing is not about fairness for English refs, its about getting in and getting out without criticism.

hence, it was not on English TV so a lesser ref was put on who had a little point to make and could make it.

how the Henderson pen was not a pen I don't know . then no red for a clear red I think says that ref gelot his point across very nicely.

if we play a big TV game you will find very different decisions being taken around the small stuff and the big stuff having to be perfect

 

Totally this. they've saying they got involved because it was a subjective decision as to whether Konsa intentionally played the ball - vut surely the on-field subjective decision was already made by the lino who must have seen Virgil was four yards offside when Konsa played the ball and had decided the ball was played intentionally.

So, where was the 'clear and obvious error '?

Remember a few seasons ago at OT when Lindelof raked the back of Origis calf in the build up to a goal by Rashford? It was right in front of the ref. Imo it eas too far away from goal anyway, but it wasnt overruled by VAR because the ref had seen it and had therefore not made a 'clear and obvious error ' ( though he had - it wass that **** Atkinson - hes never made a clear and obvious correct decision in his life). Rightly, imo, VAR didn't overrule the ref on that call as he had seen it clearly. So here is my point -wtf did VAR and Webb in the stand see on their screens that the lino didn't? In fact, it showed clearly Konsa moved his leg towards the ball. How did they 'subjectivity ' decide that was not a conscious act? Are they neurosurgeons or something?