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Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by Paulpowersleftfoot, Sep 25, 2012.
Dear, oh dear.
Whereas on the Liverpool board, my post was ironic, that is just plain nasty, clumsy and just not funny. Must try harder.
The tea lady refused to serve JB tea in case she caught germs off him and they use to make him dress up as black and white minstrel at Xmas parties humiliating him.
Liverpool had problems with black players much later on than supposedly more racist clubs like Chelsea West ham
Watch out for UIR today. He's not in the best of moods.
"Sonny"? I'm probably old enough to be your father. Clearly though, I'm not.
History shows that success in football is cyclical and it is difficult for a team to dominate a sport for a prolonged period of time.
What United have achieved in the last 20 years is incredible and within UK, matched only by Liverpool's own period of domination in the 70's and 80's.
We know what happened to them in the 90's. We know that they were accustomed to success and league success was demanded, not expected. Time and time again in the past two decades they have rebuilt (well, not the stadium) and tried to get back to those lofty heights (or perch, if you will).
Displays like the one posted in the video, showing not just abuse (which as PISKIE rightly says - you can hear at any ground before a penalty) but the hate and bile being directed at United by Liverpool fans is saddening. They hate United because they took their place.
So in the future, when it happens to us and United have two points after 5 games and haven't won the league in over two decades - let's all try to ensure that we are not bitter, resentful or hateful to WHOEVER takes our place. I really, really, don't want us to be like that.
Football WAS cyclical.
Time was a group of great players coming through the youth system and some smart buys from other domestic teams could catapult anyone to the top.
Now talented kids aged 15 are getting poached by big clubs and the difference in income between the top elite and the rest is too vast an obstacle. United make more in profit each year than half the teams in the league get as income.
It'll take a long time, decades if ever, before there's a chance of United being mid table because there's too much money involved now. Even Chelsea with years of bought success don't come close to United in terms of revenue.
All that I've asked, repeatedly but with no response so far, is that someone publishes the video of these two fans doing the so-called 'gestures'. Our concern, genuinely, is that on that day of all, any Liverpool fans making such gestures, no matter what the provacation, should be identified and banned for life end of. Considering that in the hysteria following the Suarez witchhunt, during a home against Oldham Oliver Holt swore blind he'd heard a fan say something - from his hotel room in Dubai 3000 miles away, you'll understand that "he said, she said" stuff just doesn't cut it, given the seriousness and all that.
Sky issued a report, BACKED UP BY VIDEO EVIDENCE, that Man U fans (who had been pretty much exemplary until then) had been recorded singing Hillsborough and Heysel songs - their words, not mine, and don't give us that **** about the victims song being about Suarez: you were singing it before he joined liverpool and your own club and manager asked you not to sing it as THEY knew it was about Hillsborough. Within an hour the irish Examiner were reporting that Man U fans were responding to taunts from Liverpool fans' gestures. An hour later various papers online were saying it was two fans. yesterday Liverpool police confirmed A fan had been ejected for gesturing at Man U fans. What gestures isn't mentioned.
Now then, the reason the United fans were caught out in the first place is that they obviously didn't think Sky were still recording. That being the case, where is the Sky film of these two (one) fan(s)? Surely (hopefully) Liverpool have cctv of these fans/fan and can indentify them, then ban and expose them. And surely, if reports are to be believed, with there being two seperate incidents in front of thousands of United fans, at least one of them would have recorded it on their phones? They were quick enough to record this....
This needs to be nipped in the bud before cynicism based upon previous lies of Liverpool fans (after all, what is the Hillsborough report about, and we do appreciate that conclusions, based solidly upon evidence as opposed to self-perpetuating press reports were not what some of you wanted to hear about the 'victims') might lead some to think that this is just a self-justification story by thousands of United fans who got caught out and are trying to paint themselves as, er, victims.
Now you wouldn't want that, would you? Show us the evidence then - not just this 'He said, she said, he saw, that bloke said, was reported in that he saw, she said, he saw" circular, factless ****e.
Why is video evidence required? People are sent to prison for decades without it. Eye-witness reports are enough.
Never held with this whole "cyclical" thing. Apart from Liverpool and Utd, no team has had a prolonged period of success and there is no real pattern in the successes of other teams. The whole cyclical thing appears to have been largely invented by Liverpool fans, in the hope that we'll have a decline that's as big as their's has been.
This. But apparently the eye witness reports of over two thousand people just can't be trusted. Obviously they should not have been utterly disgusted by the bloke, they should have been trying to video him instead...
Jip and Swarbs have answered anyway but the fact it hasn't been denied by your club and has been corroborated by an ex player should suffice. It happened, and you know it. Unless you have never been to a match in your life you will also know that two thousand fans locked in after a game will react when provoked, regardless of whether it was one, two, twenty two or twenty thousand. Sort yourselves out before getting on your sanctimonious high horse about the behaviour of our fans.
The ex player in question never actually said he saw it, if you mean McAteer. And that's the problem, people are repeating again and again a 'fact' that they themselves haven't seen. Why do we 'need' video evidence? Because, in these circumstances, it should exist. You would never have accepted that thousands of United fans were singing those songs had Sky not recorded it, even had McAteer, Collymore and Ian StJohn given written affidavits under oath that they saw it. Apart from which, we had a 23 year struggle for the truth against all the dark forces our society could muster, based against eye witness accounts that swore blind our fans urinated on brave coppers, picked the pockets of the dead, etc.
As for the decades of eyewitness accounts sending suspects down, well yes, you wouldn't expect a burglar to appear on too many cctv's, or someone nicking farm equipment for instance. But a 'gesture' in a stadium with Television cameras and cctv coverage of the whole stadium? So it's all about context, and, as said, we need to identify these dirtbags (if they exist) and ban them for life. If they don't, we need to get to the source of the story (so far as I can see it's an Irish newspaper), and if they can't back up this United-serving 'alibi' to ban them instead.
And talking of gestures and context, what is Beckham doing there in that picture in your post? Could that be taken as an 'airplane' gesture? Or would common sense and taking things into context dictate otherwise, like regarding a song about victimhood, for example, being bugger all to do with the Luis Suarez case?
Well firstly Donga it's Eric Cantona and secondly context does indeed need to be applied. Therefore Eric Cantona shrugging his shoulders does not constitute making an aeroplane, two fans with their arms out in front of Manchester United fans does.
Let's not go into the Suarez thing again but context is exactly the reason why negrito was NOT a term of endearment on that day.
Anyway, we know you've had to wait 23 years for the truth to come out but if you dont mind me saying, this does not wipe the slate clean of ALL other previous misdemeanours and mean you can slate oppostion fans at will as if you lot are some band of saints.
This is becoming annoying, and what you have by way of this thread is a backlash of sorts. Even then it is only a minor and very discrete one but the simple fact of the matter is that you all seem to have given yourselves carte blanche to hold yourselves up as paragons of virtue when the truth is you're not. Far from it.
Personally i'm pig sick of it.
At least you can articulate what you're saying, don't get me started on the ****ing retards on your board.
I see. So given you expect the individual Liverpool fans to be identified, please can you direct us to the video evidence of individual people singing? I'm sure given the amount of CCTV and Sky cameras that were apparently filming the incident, and that the singing went on for some minutes, that there must be at least one video that shows the individual people singing.
What's that? Yes, you're right, it's much easier for video cameras to pick up something being done by a massive crowd than to pick up individual people from 100 yards away.
Also, I've seen no video evidence Utd fans were singing "Where's your famous Munich song". But I've also seen no Utd fan claim it didn't happen. Thus your argument is yet more complete bollocks.
Listen guys we are all wrong. My mate at the game, 2 thousand plus others, Merseyside police are all wrong and some Liverpool fans on a forum who were not at the game are right.
Would agree with those who say some of these Liverpool fans on here are trying to make a moral high ground of things after the Hillsborough report was released and some of them lot are trying to make out their fans are perfect and ours are all villains.
Yes Liverpool fans the paragon of virtue, if it wasn`t for Hillsborough they would still be singing Munich songs and making aeroplane gestures en masse even now.
I personally would not belittle the Hillsborough tragedy in any way, as we are all fans at the end of the day.
With no reference to Hillsborough in any way i am sick of Pool fans always playing the victim card. If they lose a match it`s the refs fault, or opposition keepers only play good against them. Ref`s, the FA and the media are against them as proven with the Suarez affair. It wasn`t the angels fault anyway it was Evra`s.
When the team are playing carp if they don`t like the manager it`s his fault, if they like the manager it`s a certain player that an unliked manager bought.
If all else fails it was H&G fault anyway.