LFW on Ramsey

[rangercol]

Fair enough Col, it's a personal experience. In the TF era I think it boils down to a run of 5 home wins that kept us up and a day out at Wembley though, and from where I sit our reputation for playing decent football (the thing I am most interested in and what I had hoped most for from Ramsey) is just a memory. No argument about seeing some great players at LR, although it was a painful day (remember the traffic?) Suarez was just outstanding in Liverpool's 3-0 win, Sanchez was wonderful for Arsenal last year and (brace yourself) Cesar was world class in our 0-0 with City. I know there are many others as well, just the 3 that came first to mind.

Two promotions, two relegations and £200m plus of debt to show for it. A smattering of games which were great to be at. A fan base which, on its day, can make LR rock to the foundations, but more frequently nowadays seems to want to destroy its own players at the slightest opportunity.

I think Damage's point is that TF can't be blamed for the failure of various managers, whereas mine would be that he can be held accountable and there is a lot more wrong than just poor managerial appointments.

I think both points of view are valid.
Rooney ran a game at Loftus Rd too, which was quite awesome to witness.

 

[Tramore Ranger]

Bosingwa, is the only one where we should have known better but he signed in August 2012 and left more than 2 years ago
The absolute crucial point that you fail to achieve to give your point any credibility is linking their under-performance to TF and not to bad management.
Without linking it and specifically with the current squad to TF as his fault with a reasoned explanation I don't feel you have a point



No offence but you come across as an unintelligent bloke who hasn't thought through his opinion. TF has been the chairman while some managers and players have performed lower than expected. He's bought seemingly good players and case of Hughes and Redknapp well respected managers but they've been below expectations. So you say it is TF's fault but when asked to explain that link, why you believe that to be the case you've even attempted to do so. I suspect because you cant.

Really is contradictory to say we stayed up because Dalglish arrogantly substituted players. Coates came on as a sub in that game.... scored a pretty good goal. Henderson £18m came on at 0-0. Then at 2-1 on comes £35m man Carroll for Suarez. A stretch to call it a capitulation. Do you know who scored the second and a few other key goals in that run...? Cisse. Who TF brought in

Next year Hughes was backed and an at the time respected scout in Rigg. It went tits up but then moving in to more recent past. Lessons learned by TF at least (while still let down by managers). I just had a quick look on the votes on the poll I posted in my first post about last seasons transfer window. You gave it a 7 out of 10. So TF hasn't done that bad then has he? Plus this window. Any major issues there. We shopped in a budget. Wouldn't pay Ream silly wages. Brought in Angella who got promoted last year. Surely what you are happy with.

If you think this squad has performed to the best of its ability then fine. I don't believe it has and am hopeful if we get a proper manager in everything is there for a good go at promotion although top 2 is now harder after the bad start under Ramsey. If you can explain how this under-performance is TF's fault and not Ramsey's for doing things like playing Henry at right wing, behind the striker or on the pitch in general then i'll be happy to hear it and understand a point I cant see being justified in the slightest when looking at the current squad and recent past

Please explain what?!?!?!!?!?!?! Recent past

"Football supporting has always been about opinions. Two people go to the same game and come away with entirely different impressions of it, and when one voices their opinion to the other the indignant rage builds up inside and an argument ensues. In a Derby curry house late on Tuesday night a discussion around our table about how Grant Hall had done a good job of keeping Chris Martin quiet was interrupted by a Phil and Grant Mitchell tribute act, who’d overheard/eavesdropped on the conversation from the other side of the dining room and decided they absolutely had to walk over and interrupt the meal of three perfect strangers to tell us how wrong we were, how brilliant Martin had been and “****” Hall was.

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These conversations used to be the mainstay of pubs and radio phone ins but they’ve grown into something more now. Everybody has a dozen ways of putting them forward – message boards, Twitter feeds, blogs, websites, message boards, podcasts. You venture your point of view, and somebody disagrees with it, so you argue back for days on end. You become entrenched in your view, it becomes extreme"

Damage can I suggest you read the above passage from Clive that was published on LFW and then look in the Mirror because it describes you exactly.....as has been said countless times "an opinion is like an arsehole......everyone has one".....

Now it's fine to have differing view points but you don't have to go on ramming your points of view down everyone else's throat just because they disagree with you.......accept it that at times it's best to agree to disagree.....

Now there's a game to be won today.....Up the R's

 

[Sooperhoop]

Can someone please explain to me just what they think TF is actually doing to inspire the poor performances of the managers he has employed. In order to do right by our club he's taken on the guy that most people rated as the best English manager of his generation and then the man who most people thought was good enough to be the England manager and given both all the resources they asked for. A recipe for disaster clearly.

Absolutely, it defies logic but it happened. That's football. In the end the only person you can blame beyond the individuals employed is the person who employed them...

 

[Sooperhoop]

Bosingwa, is the only one where we should have known better but he signed in August 2012 and left more than 2 years ago
The absolute crucial point that you fail to achieve to give your point any credibility is linking their under-performance to TF and not to bad management.
Without linking it and specifically with the current squad to TF as his fault with a reasoned explanation I don't feel you have a point



No offence but you come across as an unintelligent bloke who hasn't thought through his opinion. TF has been the chairman while some managers and players have performed lower than expected. He's bought seemingly good players and case of Hughes and Redknapp well respected managers but they've been below expectations. So you say it is TF's fault but when asked to explain that link, why you believe that to be the case you've even attempted to do so. I suspect because you cant.

Really is contradictory to say we stayed up because Dalglish arrogantly substituted players. Coates came on as a sub in that game.... scored a pretty good goal. Henderson £18m came on at 0-0. Then at 2-1 on comes £35m man Carroll for Suarez. A stretch to call it a capitulation. Do you know who scored the second and a few other key goals in that run...? Cisse. Who TF brought in

Next year Hughes was backed and an at the time respected scout in Rigg. It went tits up but then moving in to more recent past. Lessons learned by TF at least (while still let down by managers). I just had a quick look on the votes on the poll I posted in my first post about last seasons transfer window. You gave it a 7 out of 10. So TF hasn't done that bad then has he? Plus this window. Any major issues there. We shopped in a budget. Wouldn't pay Ream silly wages. Brought in Angella who got promoted last year. Surely what you are happy with.

If you think this squad has performed to the best of its ability then fine. I don't believe it has and am hopeful if we get a proper manager in everything is there for a good go at promotion although top 2 is now harder after the bad start under Ramsey. If you can explain how this under-performance is TF's fault and not Ramsey's for doing things like playing Henry at right wing, behind the striker or on the pitch in general then i'll be happy to hear it and understand a point I cant see being justified in the slightest when looking at the current squad and recent past

As Tramore succinctly put it, it's an opinion. You seem to be trying to link good performances to what should be the norm. We had some good wins but a lot of humiliations under all those managers.

Ramsey, as I said at the time he was appointed, was the cheap option. TF said he would develop our team through youth. When players weren't sold no-one mentioned that the priority had changed, probably because we made a decent start. Once results mirrored performances TF returned and the sh*t hit the fan. He was an easy sacrifice because he was cheap and he should never have been appointed in the first place.

You must be so supremely intelligent to waste so much time forensically breaking down every match to create a fatuous argument when you have absolutely no idea what is going on behind the scenes, and that more than anything has influenced what has affected the team and it's results. Hopefully, someone will write a book on the past five years and enlighten us all...

 

[seagullhoop]

Bosingwa, is the only one where we should have known better but he signed in August 2012 and left more than 2 years ago
The absolute crucial point that you fail to achieve to give your point any credibility is linking their under-performance to TF and not to bad management.
Without linking it and specifically with the current squad to TF as his fault with a reasoned explanation I don't feel you have a point.

I think maybe we are talking at cross purposes.

Just to be sure I'm not misunderstood...

'As a club we have a recent history of taking good players (and arguably managers) and watching them underperform.'

This is not speculation - the list of players I provided is clear evidence of that - they fail with us but go on to prosper elsewhere. They are not 'bad' players in my opinion so we have to look at the reasons for their underperformance. If you blame the manager - let's take Mark Hughes for example - why is he successful elsewhere and not with us? He is clearly not a 'bad' manager so why didn't it work with us? I am yet to hear a compelling explanation for this - and he certainly did not become a 'bad' manager temporarily - so the logical answer is that there must have been factors outside of his management that contributed to his failure.

It is a commonly held opinion - that has been expressed by people more knowledgeable than myself - that there was (and perhaps still is) a deeper malaise at the club - and that it is that there is something in the culture of the club that is causing people to fail - something that is holding the club back and that until this is dealt with the club will continue to make the same mistakes. I don't think it's possible to lay 100% of the blame at any door, but similarly I can't agree that TF and the board do not own a significant amount of responsibility - if only for not putting this right.

Frankly whether we agree or not doesn't matter - opinions are like arseholes... everybody has one and I'm happy to disagree. Let's face it, if we didn't differ in our reading of the situation it would be a pretty bland forum.

As final point - there seems to be a trend on here that if you disagree with someone, calling them an idiot (or any other ad hominem style attacks) is somehow acceptable. It isn't

 

[seagullhoop]

I see Tramore and I have the same point about arseholes - apologies... I hadn't read your post... was too busy constructing my own!

Let's hope for a good day and a resounding win.

 

[TWGWTDT]

Well the Routledge example I gave and lack of spine to inherit as we were carried up by one player who then had his own much analysed story, the
fact we stayed up that year plus the fact it was 4 yeara ago (teams have gone from league one to comfortable prem in less time) explain that

To prove that we have a culture of overpaid panic signings. Do you not think considering the 8 out of ten we gave it on this board and the broad support we gave this summer makes that criticism outdated? I would say your view became entrenched because people like SWP and Hoilett have had such long contract despite the board learning from those lessons that reminder is still stuck to us for another season

As for this year Fernandes is bang on to expect promotion. If you look at our squad and honestly think it's not reasonable to expect we push for promotion then we'll literally never be good enough.

Plus if u look at the last 10 years there is a 3% chance we'll go up next year which means it's even more reasonable to focus on this year.

As you say not a single good performance But we're 13th. Our individual quality has got us there. If we get a decent manager in who can get good team performances watch us shoot up the league might be a few on here looking silly

Mr Peter we all look silly on here
The skill is knowing that, adapting to facts, forming new opinions and living life. TF has delivered debt and massaged his ego with our club in still my current opinion
We had to attact players using a vision and money is his only defence
If we taste success again the same will apply if we want to live in the top tier

 

[Peter Damage]

I think maybe we are talking at cross purposes.

Just to be sure I'm not misunderstood...

'As a club we have a recent history of taking good players (and arguably managers) and watching them underperform.'

This is not speculation - the list of players I provided is clear evidence of that - they fail with us but go on to prosper elsewhere. They are not 'bad' players in my opinion so we have to look at the reasons for their
underperformance. If you blame the manager - let's take Mark Hughes for example - why is he successful elsewhere and not with us? He is clearly not a 'bad' manager so why didn't it work with us? I am yet to hear a compelling
explanation for this - and he certainly did not become a 'bad' manager temporarily - so the logical answer is that there must have been factors outside of his management that contributed to his failure.

It is a commonly held opinion - that has been expressed by people more knowledgeable than myself - that there was (and perhaps still is) a deeper malaise at the club - and that it is that there is something in the culture of the club that is causing people to fail - something that is holding the club back and that until this is dealt with the club will continue to make the same mistakes. I don't think it's possible to lay 100% of the blame at any door, but similarly I can't agree that TF and the board do not own a significant amount of responsibility - if only for not putting this right.

Frankly whether we agree or not doesn't matter - opinions are like arseholes... everybody has one and I'm happy to disagree. Let's face it, if we didn't differ in our reading of the situation it would be a pretty bland forum.

As final point - there seems to be a trend on here that if you disagree with someone, calling them an idiot (or any other ad hominem style attacks) is somehow acceptable. It isn't

Sometimes people are associated with things through no fault of their own. Aaron Ramsey had a run of games were he scored and someone famous died. It's not actually his fault!

Seems the only evidence against TF is association but identifying mistakes without hindsight on recent years is much harder

And you got personal first, but inserted no offence. So what's the problem

 

[seagullhoop]

And you got personal first, but inserted no offence. So what's the problem

Really? Where? If that is true I apologise, but I read through the thread and can't see where I have been personally abusive. I try to avoid personal abuse because I think it diminishes the argument - happy to be corrected though.