Krueger's Korner - The Off-Topic Chat Thread

I'm also a bit miffed by his Cameron/Benn comparison, even people that were opposed to Benn's political views admit that he spent his political life defending the rights of the poorest and most vunerable members of society, in spite of his birthright.

 

Which government brought in ATOS to deal with the sick? Whoever it was made a massive **** up. £500m contract for basically ****ing up peoples lives.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer...atos-to-stop-judging-peoples-fitness-for-work

 

Yaaay, more transponsting starting Monday.

 

"And that's nothing compared to the complications it would cause for trade. Many international corporations who rely on the customs union, free movement of capital and the availability of immigrant workers would pull out of the UK"

How the hell do we manage to trade with the rest of the world? The part that's growing in influence, instead of shrinking. A reliance on cheap immigrant labour is to be celebrated?






So what you're saying, in brief, is that regardless of whether we entered under false pretences (loose trading partnership) , are worse(or better) off in the EU, and have NO say on whether border controls are an issue of some relevance to one of the most overcrowded countries in the EU, we should stick with it.

Leave it to the politicians - we can trust them. Fair enough, just ask Alex Salmond what he wants to do with Scotland?

As for economic arguments, I don't believe that some accommodation would not be found....especially if the EU wants us to continue buying all their stuff (we do run a substantial trade deficit with member states, whereas we have a surplus to many countries in the wider world)

"Factory goes up, factory goes down, factory goes up, factory goes down. " Yeah, that would be a new phenomenon, wouldn't it?

 

Ah, is this the pastime you have where they pay you to be on this forum but from their location..?

 

In other news, Schumacher's manager, Sabine Kehr, says that he's now showing "moments of consciousness" which is fantastic news.

 

Something we can all agree on.

 

The trade with the rest of the world is subject to customs duties and taxes. If our trade with EU members was subject to customs duties and taxes, there'd be less of it. Simple.

I never said anything to do with cheap immigrant labour being celebrated; that's just your nationalist agenda creeping through.

More immigrants = greater working population
No customs duties and taxes = more business
Greater working population + more business = larger economy

Again, no, that's not what I'm saying. That argument isn't about whether or not we should stick with it, that argument is about whether or not we should let the public make the decision on whether or not we should stick with it. I explicitly said that if we're worse off in the EU then our government should remove us from it.

And he has the right to want to do that, unfortunately. Unfortunately for him, he still answers to Westminster.

Some, yes.

Less, yes.

Would you like to exacerbate this phenomenon?

Still, you don't address the crux of this entire argument, which is that the public simply is not sufficiently educated on the matter.

 

Traditionally Labour have represented the working class, hence their name, but of course Socialist values are seen as poison by the majority in this day and age, and that was why New Labour was born. I want to make clear from the outset that I was not a supporter of New Labour, and believe that Tony Blair is an awful man who took the party so far away from what it was. People like Tony Benn, and in current MP terms, Dennis Skinner, became MPs at a time where trade Unions were the norm, and the Labour Party was their political representation. That is why people think Labour represent the working class - because they did. Of course, nobody is saying that they are that party now. They clearly are not. Politically they are aligned in the middle, but there is perhaps a hope that they may yet return to their socialist roots, especially with somebody with the family background of Ed Miliband. It is perhaps naive to think like that, but certainly it is not completely out of the question. Furthermore, Tony Benn cannot be compared to David Cameron. Benn was not a member of an elitist club at Oxford ('Bullingdon'), who went around trashing restaurants and asking Daddy, who just so happened to be good friends with the local chief constable, to let them off the hook.
The fact is, these people are in charge of the country. I am not for one minute suggesting that Cameron is that same person now, and that he has no care for the majority of the population who are not of his social class, but these people are not representative of the country.
The same argument could be said about Labour I suppose, as nearly all have been to Oxbridge and were educated privately. That is not how it should be.

Your point on benefits is just cheap ammunition, and one which is often branded about by the right-wing tabloids and relaid as fact by 'the man on the street'. It isn't. The truth is, as Beefy has made clear, there is an incredible amount of, to quote a Tory phrase, 'honest, hardworking people' who represent the majority that claim benefits, that have been forced to by the cuts made under this government. Those at the top have had a tax break. That is fact, and that is why this argument about Cameron being a 'toff' is brought up.

Sure, the facts are that the Country's finances are not in good shape at all. The deficit needed to be reduced and cuts needed to be made, but the rich are getting richer under this government. That is a terrible fact. I read the other day that the 5 wealthiest families in Britain, had more than 20% of the Uk population, that is not right. These are the people who should be helping the most vulnerable, and should be the first to be targeted with regards to cuts.
All this unemployment, benefit claiming, and harsh cuts, make issues like Immigration more relevant for people. UKIP feed off this vulnerability of the country, and use it to play the immigration card, as a way of a scapegoat. These people are not to blame. The vast majority come to this country, and work hard, and don't claim benefits whatsoever, but the exception to this is branded about as the majority. Unfortunately, in times like these, people are more likely to believe it.

 

Hopefully. At the previous location I had to use all my cunning to be able to get away with it. Until I see my new desk, there will be anxious uncertainty as to whether or not I'll actually have to do work.

 

So an education issue, not a democratic one. I'm sure they'll all be totally clued up come Westminster Elections?


"The trade with the rest of the world is subject to customs duties and taxes. If our trade with EU members was subject to customs duties and taxes, there'd be less of it. Simple."

Why then is our export trade to the EU shrinking as a proportion of our total, whereas it's growing with the rest of the world, tariffs and all? As for tariffs- don't forget the greater amount we can charge EU countries if they want to go down that route- they do sell us more than we sell them.

As for nationalism. Don't get me wrong; if I thought there was a snowball's chance in hell of proper reform and some claw back of sovereignty, I'd be happy to stay in. I could still be convinced now. A referendum would force open debate on the issues.

 

Absolutely spot on AL. And one of the harshest measures brought in recently is the "bedroom tax" where people on housing benefits living in supposedly too-large accommodation for their needs have the benefits cut. This all sounds fair to the average Daily Mail reader until you start to look at the fine detail, when you find that there is a complete absence of one bedroom housing for rent, especially in rural areas. And if you have a child who only lives with you part of the time, you can't include that child as part of your housing requirements. So you either have to share a bedroom with the child, or the child has to share with another child, possibly of the opposite sex, or you have your housing benefit cut. And even if you try to move to a smaller place, you can't because there isn't anywhere in your area. Another triumph for the wonderful Tory government.

 

agreed, but that is at least another layer before a decision is made. A referendum is asking the people to make a strategic decision.

 

Let's just pray that, if he does come to, he isn't seriously disabled.

 

I will vote now, as we seem to have gone from discussing whether a referendum should take place into political party views.

I vote we stop as that is one of the 'rules' of the forum.

*stands in good corner*

 

Agreed! It has "progressed" from the validity of democratic consent to wider political matters. I vote with you - if everyone's OK with the principal

 

Yep, I think you've had a good run and debate at a topic which is meant to be on the not allowed list**. We're fairly flexible here though, so we tend to let things develop and fizzle out by themselves. Perhaps you can help this one fizzle out now.

Cheers

**says a contributor

 

My Dad is coming up to put a new gate on the side of my house

*DIYnumpty*

*fizzlingout*

 

Your Dad..? Can't you do it..?

Oh I see. DIYnumpty. Another name for the non-resourceful.

 

Yes, it is an education issue. The strength of democracy and quality of education go hand in hand. They won't be at all clued up come Westminster elections, and most people will be voting for entirely the wrong reasons. The only reason I'm the slightest bit content with this is that alternating between two parties every five or ten years is better than the alternative, which is dictatorship.

You used the key word there: "proportion". It's simply that historically-poor and technologically-backwards countries' economies are growing fast and they're trading a lot more. Still, Germany is the second-largest importer of British goods, and France is the third, and if we want to start charging them for the goods they're buying off us (the biggest exports being nuclear reactors, boilers, and various other mechanical appliances), they can take their custom to other EU members which produce those things.

And let's not forget our economy relies far more on imports than exports.

Thus far, the debate has been the usual combination of media bias, cheap shots between political parties and conflicting figures, but who knows, maybe somewhere in the midst of all the bollocks a few people might learn a few things.

I've just read the above post regarding calling this a day, and I'm happy to oblige.