MITO. You make some strong arguments but I don't think that the picture is as bleak as you paint. Yes we do need to add quality to our squad. Both Henry and Rodgers have made it clear that our 'spend' will be very carefully managed and therefore marquee signings are highly unlikely. However, that does mean that we can offer opportunities to young players to actually establish themselves and make their names. Our history, prospects and wages are therefore likely to be more attractive than some people think. I don't know why you are writing Adam off so easily. Sure he had a bad season and struggled to meet all the expectations. However, I do believe that he could find Rodgers strategy much more to his skill set.
My opinion is that to be a consistent top 4 team we have got to hold off spurs and arsenal... we cannot compete with chelsea and city for money and even utd can't do that. i simply don't buy the theory utd are about to implode seeing the last 5 years has not seen it. the thing ins to be that top 4 side we need to win all our games home and away v the lower half of the table, not beat top 4 sides. to do this we need the squad to have real options. kuyt up top was not a real option. we need to be able to launch a striekr off the bench to replace a guy on 60mins not hope we can get a goal. now on adam: my critique is 1. he is a complete ball watcher 2. he fouls constantly rather than get into position 3. worst of all the bottled it, taking frees, corners and pens was his forte at blackpool by the middle of the year he was doing terrible at all three. Rodgers says pressing and attacking but with tactical discipline. adam has zero positioning skills with which to show said discipline. as i said, any team can go on a one off run. if we want to be in a position to hold 4th for anything more than a one off thing then unlike say EVERTON in 2005 or even spurs we need to have the squad to do it. 2 forwards and an average midfield isn't going to cut it. Marquee signings suggest hazard, hulk and so forth to me. not what i said though.... we need to KNOW that the players we buy are qulity up and comers (like dare i say it henderson appears to be) or guys who can come i day one and make an impact (like hyppia did all those years ago) In reality i name 8 poistions, i defy anyone to tell me that 100mil would not be needed to fill them. (barring of course a couple of slots go to youth like Robinson and wisdom) I'd hardly call it bleak though... it aint like i'm saying we'll be relegated or bottom half, i merely point out that top 4 is a standard we are not at. example: Utd: 2 keepers RB: 2/3 options 1 LB, one kid in fabio 4 CBs CM scholes carrick cleverly plus a couple options they are weak here 4 wingers, giggs, nani, young, valencia 4 strikers unitl berbaflop leaves I can write out squads for other sides but the consistent thing they have is options, options to come in and cover at the back as required but REAL options for every game up front and creatively form midfield/wing. We simply have two forwards, no real back up and were left with bellamy, a 33 year old free transfer to be the option. this has to change if a consistent challenge for top 4 is to be maintained... after all is the goal not at least top 4 with a title tilt ever now and again... as all i can see form 30mil is 6th-8th with the odd 4th place challenge every now and then.
Very realistic views, I don't think we are going to get 4th spot next year nor should we expect to. We were miles off last season and we have now had a change of manager too - what we must make sure to do is what MITO suggests, get players who are actually going to have an impact and are REAL options for us if we pick up injuries to key memebers like Suarez and Agger. You can look at most teams and say 100m would do them a world of good and of course it would, we aren't going to get that kind of money in one transfer window though so need to be smart like Newcastle were last season.
I think you should wait and see what actually happens in the window, but either way, I wouldn't be holding the mancs up as a shining example
Maybe so, but they still have a much stronger squad than us and the still continue to not only qualify for Champions League football every season but also challenge for the league. they can't be that bad really can they...? PS - De Gea is a quality keeper who started to find his feet last year. He will be even better this season and will continue to progress with age. Face it, they have a good young keeper who is only going to get better.
The guy has string for legs, he is just not got the physical form to do anything about corners or free kicks. he needs massive levels of protection from the ref, and that is just not right.
I think BR will cure our main problem last year. Uncontrolled agression. Almost every match we tore at the opposition with shock & awe tactics, great when we scored bad for energy levels the rest of the match when we didn't & bad for moral; if you've given everything you've got in the first twenty & not succeeded what do you do for the next 70? Hopefully BR will teach what is largely a young squad to hold the ball & unleash at the Right time. So with just our existing squad & injuries In the positions we had last year? No league position improvement, maybe 7th If we can get adequate cover for Lucas we can make 6th. If we also get someone like Sigurdsson we can make 5th In addition to that if we get an intelligent striker & Naturally wide player We can compete ((if not necessarily succeed) in getting 4th. It would be a bonus if we could get cover for CB & LB other than the youngsters we have. £15m Striker £10m DM £8m AM £8-12m WM £45M Nobodys telling me that the young squad we have now, peppered with wisely used oldies can't learn to hold on to the ball like Swansea? Add to that: within that group now holding on to the ball & not wasting energy in mad pointless dashes we don't have enough quality to unlock teams (if that were the case Swansea would have finished above us) So I think the figure above combined with the assumption (it is an assumption) that the majority of the young existing players can adopt a system dictated by the manger. Will get us back competing. If that succeeds then I think you can talk about 100-160 M over 3 years to make us competitive where it matters. And with all this fabulous work the owners are doing commercially I don't think it's unfair to expect that kind of money over 3 years: with FSG adding to it if for example if the majority is needed in year 2 to get the players we need that have become available. Buy wisely & you don't need 500M
I'd agree on de gea but he does have quality about him... utd bought him for 10 years not 1... same as we bought carroll for "5 years" not 1.5 years.... de gea better start producing and so should andy. Look guys I know 100mil aint going to happen but in the end either we invest that over one or two years net or we don't. the issue as i see it is that teams have natural degradation over time and if you take so long to improve by speind 30mil or whatever that the team falls apart quicker than you are building it you get nowhere. example: chelsea.... abramovich spent crazy money and wasted 60% of it building his side. he then sacked loads of managers and only spent smaller amounts and guess what they team degraded over time and stars aged. now he's goingt o have to spend carzy again and already started with the likes of hazard and torres. City did the same. Utd have taken a different route which sees them buy smalling for 7mil, jones, young, bring on welbeck through good loans.... utd had 89points i nthe end but failed i nthe cups... not a good year yet one could in theory claim they have a team for the next 5 years in the making. De gea Rafael Smalling Jones Fabio (dirt) Valencia Cleverly MR X Nani Rooeny Welbeck I think we have to see that they have done precisely what we want to do. buy yonuger, buy smart at end of contracts, and fill the gaps... they are missing that midfielder of course. but when you consider they have the senior players to back that it aint too bad at all. Most importantly they have options in hernandez and others to launch from the bench and are loaning out kids to get them up to speed. ..... back to LFC... the real quality in our squad is reina, jonhson agger, lucas, gerrard suarez.. thats top tlaent for any club. enrique, skertl, carroll at season end maybe downing if he'd wipe his snotty nose and try could be back up. but we just don't have the squad to compete. Adam i don't rate, maxi is aged, bellamy is a crock, carragher is terrible, kuyt is gone already. they all need replacing so if we don't get on with it we'll only end up back where we started ebfore we bought 7 players.... age and time are the killers for footballers so we have to get to a place were the one or two buys can sustain it, where we can sell on a big star to real or barca and bring in a younger talent without thinking its a disaster or they've betrayed us ala mascherano.
I'm far less defeatist about out top 4 credentials than a few of us appear to be. I'm not saying that we don't need an injection of quality into the squad but I do believe that we suffered appallingly last season with injury, lack of form, suspensions and plain bad luck. The gap between ourselves and the top 4 from last season is not as big as the points tally appears to indicate. Adam is not the greatest midfielder in the world but he really suffered from his move to us, the expectations that were put upon him and the termination of a partnership with Lucas that was starting to develop. In the end he couldn't do those things that he was rated for - passes, set-pieces etc. I truly believe that this season we will see far more from him and to dismiss him so readily is silly. Last season saw Henderson and Shelby develop nicely. Kelly continued his development (though I believe that he will ultimately blossom at CB). Carroll took nearly all season to show just how dynamic he really could be and just how much his control and link play had improved. Coates now has an experience of Premiership football and is very promising. On the downside, we are yet to see anything from Downing. Kuyt has gone and there appears to be no news about Maxi. Bellamy's injuries appear to show that he can't be relied upon as a 'starter'. Plus, I think we all agree that Carra has come to the end of his time. These positions need to be addressed - but probably not in a like for like fashion. IF, and it is a big if, we can bring in young quality players who are eager to develop then I believe that 4th spot is achievable this season.
Df, you have basically agree with me on most things, you've just named 4 positions to strengthen immediately. I think we could do with another 4 players but on a lesser priority like that cb or lb but we can probably cover those off with a rb or agger covering etc. Yes sigurdsson could be a huge bargain compared to henderson and yes henderson could step up more next year. that could be about 7mil spent to get a player of some talent that could be worth 20mil in a couple of years. but i disagree on fees. yes you could find a defensive midfielder for 10mil... no question. is that elm for example? perhaps De jong as striker could cost 15mil or 20 mil who knows yet? but 15mil won't cut it for a striker i think you need to have 20mil in your pocket to get quality... and yes players like cisse, ba and hernandez cost less... find one! then 8-12 on a winger? that wont guarantee much. it put me in fear of the likes of pennent or my worry junior hoilett types. All in all for 4 platyers 10mil average sounds good but i just don't think we can find them too easily... wouldn't we all love a bale or modric type bargain..... I'll wait and see what we do but will post a blog before the first game of the season predicting the champions, top 4 and lfc position plus cups winners and relegation fodder as per last year... you guys should do the same.
And I think MITO we come to the crux of the issue. We not buying anymore expensive ready made players. I was trying to be realistic about the money we would have to spend on these positions; not what we actually need for the kind of improvement most want to see THIS year rather than over 3 years. I never thought it possible this year so... I think the message has already come down from above that this management team assembled are to combat the fact we will not have the top four transfer pot until we're in the top four. This MT are going to have to find those players you quoted early so they can be bought for the average £10m. FSG appear to be backing themselves in selecting a team most likely to find, acquire & develop tomorrow stars today. Our patience & expectation over this is are threadbare because we paid 20m for those players last year. And yes your right; if this Management team isn't all it's cracked up to be we'll be buying the hoilletts the wiltshires. I still think this team has more in them than last year though.
There should a rather in that post but it won't let me edit for done reason....just in case anyone thought I was turning my nose up at us discovering a couple of cheap Wiltshires lol...
well i do not think from where we were last year that we could have done much more than we did honestly. the only guy i didn't think was worth it was adam and even he was at a bargain price (the <10mil you allude to) I think unrealistic expectations grew up last summer as we did improve a lot and arsenal looked weak IMO <10mil players are defenders now in this day and age and it is an exception rather than a rule when a player like cisse pops up. I thought downing was expensive and thought on a straight choice utd got the better villa player but downing really disappointed. We paid 23mil for suarez and he's worth every penny... plus some for the shirt sales. we overpaid badly for carroll but again would 20mil for him have been overpaying? I do agree the team should have a lot more in them than last year but feel the only way to unlock it is to create more options..... i don't think they are anywhere near regular top 4 ability and i simply cannot see us finding at this moment in time the bargains in 4-5 positions we need to. I'd love to see a hyppia, a babbel, a berger trun up and would love to see a fowler or gerrard come trough as well.... but i honestly think if you know a guy like say javi martinez is that bloody good you have to go out and make a case for buying him. 25mil? how much will we see back in shirts? how much in improved league positions. It might blow the 30mil budget on one guy but it makes financial sense to add the extra cash to said budget to make it happen. we might turn up a milan baros type for 5mil... or a papis cisse for 8mil... i'd love it but what i do know is the MINUTE we make an offer clubs add 30% to the fee in europe and close to 50% in england. .
MITO, United's change of team strategy was not chosen by Ferguson as the way to go. Rather, it was forced upon him by the financial situation of the club. At least that's my reading of what happened - don't you just love strategic analysis (looking backwards to see where you might be going ). If FSG have brought anything to the table then it is executive discipline. We are a business and we must approach all of the clubs activities in a disciplined way. That, for me can only be a good basis from which to start.
Anyone know how Wisdom and Sama did for the reserves last season? Perhaps they could fill one of the gaps at centre back. Looked good for U18's but I didn't see a great deal of them last year. They've certainly got the physical attributes to make it
The shirt sales argument makes me smile, I think it is a red erring. Fair enough, if a top players joins then the stats show they shirts with their name on as brought in X towards their transfer fee. However, what it doesn't show is other shirt name sales being down by Y. Yes, there will be more buying shirts because of that player but the vast majority would have bought a shirt with someone else's name on had they not joined. Personally, I think we have a half decent squad that needs a bit of surgery and IMO, the best option is to look to buy a couple of versatile players. This would give us options anyway without the need for an extra couple of players. Obviously, these players can only play in one position at a time but this is where it gives the youngsters a chance to step up as squad players too
I never thought of shirt sales that way. I thought when people talked about increased shirt sales they meant through a tour of new markets like north America or Asia or if We won the champions league there'd be an up turn. Same with any merchandise. Obviously what you say is perfectly logical within existing fan base. Although looking at the possible alternate away strip we better not be relying on sales for players lol.
Absolutely. There will be an increased income from buying an Asian player for example. But, IMO, if there is an increase of X for shirt A then Y will be the gain from the Asian market whereas Z will be existing fans that have not bought shirt B. Although I don't believe Man Utd buy players from different continents purely for financial benefit, I find it hard to believe that this is not considered in the thought process Would there be a scrabble for shirts if we bought a Dutch, French, German, Spanish or Italian player...? Possibly but I'd be inclined to say that most of the rush would be the existing fan base and few would be new buyers from that players home country. Of course, we also saw a increase in Real Madrid shirts in this country when Beckham moved there so who knows...? (didn't happen with McManaman or C.Ronaldo though)
re: young players.... sama is very average and will not make a first team player. he's ok at that level. wisdom has something about him that is just that little extra. he might make it but not next year. suso has learned some intensity after being way off the pace for a while. prob far off the firsts cos it took so long to put that into his game. robinson lost the whole year to injury.... coady has regressed or at least not kicked on at all this season, isn't a CM, should concentrate on CB. all good but need good loans, experience and a chance. re shirt sales: torres and gerrard averaged 30k shirt sales reportedly (prehaps only england) x £50 thats 1.5mil each, add in euro50 or 50 yen or whatever and i can see how some merchandising could pay say suarez's fee on its own but in the end only one or two players can be bought on that rationale. lucas making no 3 shirt sales proves that cos his numbers can't be that high realistically. shirt sales can drive a 25mil deal over 5 years = 5mil per year so warrior must see say 10mil profit in it plus the introduction to europe as a market.
