January Transfer Rumours Thread

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I would be. The way I see it as there are 3 tiers of players and valuations:

Tier 1: Free - £12m mark. Unproven players, bigger risk.

Tier 2: £12m to £30m mark. Class players who have a good reputation around Europe but not deemed as world class. Less of a risk because they tend to come straight in and do a job.

Tier 3: £30m plus - World class players, hard for LFC to attract without mega bucks and CL football.

For example - Coutinho and Sturridge were in Tier 1 which was an absolute bargain. However, if they were in Tier 2, they still would have represented good value because of the impact they had. And the fact there were in Tier 1 was a freak.

At £17m, Pastore would be Tier 2 IMO and it represents value so I would be happy. Tier 2 is where we should be buying our players because it balances risk and cost.

i.e. we're not overspending on a world class player with the risk of him not performing to his value.

Alternatively, we're not buying players on the cheap from smaller clubs where their experience and ability may match their valution.

Tier 2 means that we're spending decent money and decent players.

Of course we want to be buying from Tier 1 but it's extremely difficult.

This is an interesting way to look at it though I also agree with gerrez that there are other circumstances that can affect price.

Perhaps a wider range of buckets is required?

Zero - free transfers, either huge coups (toure), has beens (toure might have been this) or don't touch (like any of rafa's you might mention. Free doesn't mean free in wages so the risk is high

say 0.5- 5mil - kids with potential, expect to recoup your investment and pay low wages. eg suso at 0.5mil or insua or even gonzalez for instance. Yesil comes to mind

5 -10mil - the guy not in demand, the guy in a lower league. the risky buy for a club our size. Are they good enough, why is their fee so small. alberto, illori, aspas. all different cases

10-20mil - huge range of value but expected to be a first team player. ranges from sturridge or kuyt to sahko or maschernao etc etc.

20 -30 mil - players in demand as big enough clubs. the mkhitaryans or suarez. about to make it but not quite the superstar yet. Expected to be a key player for us.

30mil - 50mil - top class players for a league winning side.

50mil + dreamland players

in the end sturridge now looks like he should have been 20-30million. suarez has gone from the 20-30mil bracket to the 50+ bracket thats great... conversely borini has gone from 10-20mil bracket where he should have been first team to the 0.5 to 5mil bracket.

yes there are bargains but overall its vital we ended (i hope) the rot o nthe other side the 35million for carroll that ended up 17-20mil dpeending on his success. I think apsas is a flop but it is after all 7mil so if we sell on for 3 hey we took the punt.

 

[Super G Ted'inho]

This is an interesting way to look at it though I also agree with gerrez that there are other circumstances that can affect price.

Perhaps a wider range of buckets is required?

Zero - free transfers, either huge coups (toure), has beens (toure might have been this) or don't touch (like any of rafa's you might mention. Free doesn't mean free in wages so the risk is high

say 0.5- 5mil - kids with potential, expect to recoup your investment and pay low wages. eg suso at 0.5mil or insua or even gonzalez for instance. Yesil comes to mind

5 -10mil - the guy not in demand, the guy in a lower league. the risky buy for a club our size. Are they good enough, why is their fee so small. alberto, illori, aspas. all different cases

10-20mil - huge range of value but expected to be a first team player. ranges from sturridge or kuyt to sahko or maschernao etc etc.

20 -30 mil - players in demand as big enough clubs. the mkhitaryans or suarez. about to make it but not quite the superstar yet. Expected to be a key player for us.

30mil - 50mil - top class players for a league winning side.

50mil + dreamland players

in the end sturridge now looks like he should have been 20-30million. suarez has gone from the 20-30mil bracket to the 50+ bracket thats great... conversely borini has gone from 10-20mil bracket where he should have been first team to the 0.5 to 5mil bracket.

yes there are bargains but overall its vital we ended (i hope) the rot o nthe other side the 35million for carroll that ended up 17-20mil dpeending on his success. I think apsas is a flop but it is after all 7mil so if we sell on for 3 hey we took the punt.

Then you look at one transfer to see how crazy the footballer transfer world is: Bale!

IMO, he belongs in the red section, but he was obviously a high blue section player. crazy!

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Bit controversial here but I don't want to see us signing many tier three players and I'd prefer no one over £35m

I have no issue what so ever if FSG want to pay 50mil for an ozil. non whatsoever as long as it is not a crippling move. in short arsenal could afford it cos they didn't spend and saved up for want of a better way of putting it. we spent every penny we had available each year so there is no saved up pot. ergo.. 50mil on one guy... wow....

if you are stuck in tier 2 you'd better get it exactly right each time as you can lose a lot on players who don't quite stick.... fter all only 11 players out of 25 potentially are first teamers. cheslea can afford to toss a mata aside but we can't

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Then you look at one transfer to see how crazy the footballer transfer world is: Bale!

IMO, he belongs in the red section, but he was obviously a high blue section player. crazy!

I totally agree. circumstance drove his fee IMO.

1. he signed a new contract for 5 years with spurs

2. real wanted a marquee signing

3. their alternative was a biter....

Here's the question though.. in 2 or 3 years how much do you think they will sell bale for? 40mil? 30..... all it takes is a back injury or just plain not settling and the move becomes then next "denilson" I am still laughing at the fee. mad..... yes he would fit i nthe 20-30mil range if he'd have a 2 year contract left or whatever but precisely what medals did he have to show he was worth it or had huge image selling potential....

 

[Super G Ted'inho]

I have no issue what so ever if FSG want to pay 50mil for an ozil. non whatsoever as long as it is not a crippling move. in short arsenal could afford it cos they didn't spend and saved up for want of a better way of putting it. we spent every penny we had available each year so there is no saved up pot. ergo.. 50mil on one guy... wow....

if you are stuck in tier 2 you'd better get it exactly right each time as you can lose a lot on players who don't quite stick.... fter all only 11 players out of 25 potentially are first teamers. cheslea can afford to toss a mata aside but we can't

Ozil is a bit different as he is still young. Most £50m+ players are in their later twenties having developed and improved to reach that level.

 

[Super G Ted'inho]

I totally agree. circumstance drove his fee IMO.

1. he signed a new contract for 5 years with spurs

2. real wanted a marquee signing

3. their alternative was a biter....

Here's the question though.. in 2 or 3 years how much do you think they will sell bale for? 40mil? 30..... all it takes is a back injury or just plain not settling and the move becomes then next "denilson" I am still laughing at the fee. mad..... yes he would fit i nthe 20-30mil range if he'd have a 2 year contract left or whatever but precisely what medals did he have to show he was worth it or had huge image selling potential....

Have Real (or Barca) ever made a profit from a marquee signing? The only ones I can think of were Barca players: Ronaldo (fat) and Figo (to Real ironically)

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

FSG have always maintained that they are willing to splash the cash on the right players if they are worth it.

We were willing to spend up £30m for Willian and offer reasonable salaries. However, we have a limit (thankfully) and are not prepared to go beyond it.

If there were willing to spend up to £50m on a single player, I would naturally assume that the player is world class - in which case, a whole number of other clubs will be in for the same player.

As Gez says, we should be targeting players who are already performing on a 'big-ish' stage - experience of playing a decent level, but still have plenty of room to improve.

I like what we're doing at LFC - the fact that we've managed to finish last season so strongly, combined with our impressive start to this season in such a short space of time is great credit to Rodgers and the committee's signings.

We're building a young, hungry squad which now has top level experience across the park (Cissokho, Toure, Sakho, Sturridge, Coutinho).

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Have Real (or Barca) ever made a profit from a marquee signing? The only ones I can think of were Barca players: Ronaldo (fat) and Figo (to Real ironically)

real said they would make their investment back on christiano ronaldo over the 5 years. image rights etc. who knows.... the said the same of zidane.... the easy answer is it hard to tell baout making it back but easy to point out times where it goes spectacualrly wrong for clubs.

actually willian would be a good example or e'tto or ibrahimovic

 

[Super G Ted'inho]

real said they would make their investment back on christiano ronaldo over the 5 years. image rights etc. who knows.... the said the same of zidane.... the easy answer is it hard to tell baout making it back but easy to point out times where it goes spectacualrly wrong for clubs.

actually willian would be a good example or e'tto or ibrahimovic

I know they said that but IMO, that is just bullshit. If someone wants to buy a shirt then they will buy it. If they want to get a players name on the back, they will. However, they won't buy two or three shirts because they want two or three players name. They will pick one and be done with it. Beckham, Zidane, Ronaldo, etc joining just meant that someone else wasn't picked.

It would generate a smaller proportion of income because the Beckham, Zidane and Ronaldo fans that don't follow a particular team would buy one of the team shirts whereas they wouldn't have done beforehand. However, it would generate the £23m, £46m or £80m those players cost respectively!

The only time I think the shirt sales really make a big impact is when the player is Asian, they love to follow their own. However, with the exploits of Man Utd throughout the nineties and naughties (****ing hate that reference), I think that boat as somewhat sailed a bit now too.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

FSG have always maintained that they are willing to splash the cash on the right players if they are worth it.

We were willing to spend up £30m for Willian and offer reasonable salaries. However, we have a limit (thankfully) and are not prepared to go beyond it.

If there were willing to spend up to £50m on a single player, I would naturally assume that the player is world class - in which case, a whole number of other clubs will be in for the same player.

As Gez says, we should be targeting players who are already performing on a 'big-ish' stage - experience of playing a decent level, but still have plenty of room to improve.

I like what we're doing at LFC - the fact that we've managed to finish last season so strongly, combined with our impressive start to this season in such a short space of time is great credit to Rodgers and the committee's signings.

We're building a young, hungry squad which now has top level experience across the park (Cissokho, Toure, Sakho, Sturridge, Coutinho).

I agree and am sort of thankful that willian (thought not first choice it seemed) didn't come... i am of two minds as i think moses doesn't improve us at all. we need a top player in next. if thats 20mil or 50mil its all about the player and the eturn but i expect we won't see lfc break its transfer record for some time. not until we get back to the top competing. hard to say when or how.

i think mkhitaryan would prbably have been rodger's first pick but i just wish it had been eriksen as it is impossible to lose money on a player that good at 12mil.

 

[jenners04]

i was hoping we went in for Eriksen as well, trouble is i had a feeling at the time we would have to lose one of Allen or Henderson to fund it, and not sure yet but i reckon it would have been Henderson sacrificed which would have been a a mistake as he is better from what i have seen compared to Allen.

Is Brendan the type to admit to his mistakes or is he a stubborn ****a?, ie i am not convinced by Allen (may prove me wrong) would Brendan let him go or because its one of his buys Henderson would have gone? or would there have been other choices to fund it? (cant think of any though)

 

[Super G Ted'inho]

i was hoping we went in for Eriksen as well, trouble is i had a feeling at the time we would have to lose one of Allen or Henderson to fund it, and not sure yet but i reckon it would have been Henderson sacrificed which would have been a a mistake as he is better from what i have seen compared to Allen.

Is Brendan the type to admit to his mistakes or is he a stubborn ****a?, ie i am not convinced by Allen (may prove me wrong) would Brendan let him go or because its one of his buys Henderson would have gone? or would there have been other choices to fund it? (cant think of any though)

Sahin, Borini and Assaidi would suggest he is willing to admit mistakes

PS...didn't we splash £24m on two CB's after being linked to these players?

 

[jenners04]

Sahin was a loan and Borini and Ass are out on loan aren't they? i know Borini is, as he scored a beauty for Sunderland, the ass not sure.

i meant more in having to sell a player to fund another signing, would he sell his buys first and admit they may have been a mistake or sell other managers players first and can say not my player type thing as an excuse, or who would go first for certain positions if a player had to be moved on, maybe the finances part was a silly point, too many players for certain positions would have been a better argument, who would have been sacrificed first.

 

[Super G Ted'inho]

Sahin was a loan and Borini and Ass are out on loan aren't they? i know Borini is, as he scored a beauty for Sunderland, the ass not sure.

i meant more in having to sell a player to fund another signing, would he sell his buys first and admit they may have been a mistake or sell other managers players first and can say not my player type thing as an excuse, or who would go first for certain positions if a player had to be moved on, maybe the finances part was a silly point, too many players for certain positions would have been a better argument, who would have been sacrificed first.

Granted, Sahin is a different case. However, despite not actually selling Borini or Assaidi, he still choose to have other players in the squad ahead of them.

I like a manager to be able to admit they got it wrong but if they do this they often get criticised for not giving the player time. Rafa did this many times (especially at RB) and always got stick for chopping and changing too much but I appreciated that he recognised players such as Kompcamp, Josemi and Sissoko were not good enough and moved them on. No sentimental value whatsoever.

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

Re. Moses, if used correctly, he can be an asset. Put him on the wings and he's is a better option to have than Sterling or Ibe.

Scored a goal which should have won the game against Swansea, and he set up a goal against Crystal Palace.

He will go missing in games but he has ability to produce match winning moments.

I do agree that we need better quality who can sustain a high level throughout 90 mins, every week.

But Moses is like Sturridge (when he first joined) - may not be a world beater but is a better option than our current players. And when we add players who are better than what we already have, then the team/squad improves.

 

[JonnyBaws]

So, who have we been "solidly" linked with? Would love a CDM and another striker/winger, or as Brendan would call him, a false 9 and 1/8th

 

[jenners04]

heard Pastore name come up a few times, how serious dont know, i know nothing about the player to know if we stand a chance or other clubs will be sniffing or in a better pos than us or if he is any good.

world cup year players will want regular football so any out there that arent getting that at the mo who are good enough?

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Re. Moses, if used correctly, he can be an asset. Put him on the wings and he's is a better option to have than Sterling or Ibe.

Scored a goal which should have won the game against Swansea, and he set up a goal against Crystal Palace.

He will go missing in games but he has ability to produce match winning moments.

I do agree that we need better quality who can sustain a high level throughout 90 mins, every week.

But Moses is like Sturridge (when he first joined) - may not be a world beater but is a better option than our current players. And when we add players who are better than what we already have, then the team/squad improves.

I do agree with this, at this point he would be a better winger. all i am not sure about is is he really good enough if he's not good enough for chelsea?

sturridge in fairness had his doubters... my only doubt was his fitness which he has some mixed result for us but luckily his major one was over summer. he's delivered exactly what he showed under AVB to my mind.... howeve rmoses looked ok only under rafa didn't he. i don't get why chelsea bought him.

I agree he's increasing our quality as sterling isn't there yet but i think if we'd gotten someone else we would be two cbs short... all in all for this year we should be happy we got what we got and look forward to better midfield going forward.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

So, who have we been "solidly" linked with? Would love a CDM and another striker/winger, or as Brendan would call him, a false 9 and 1/8th

I have finally decided this.

so hear me out.

I still firmly believe that DM is bad..... now let me clarify and call the position you guys want a "holding" midfield role. as in he hold position so that he is goal side when the opposition get it whereas a "box to box" player may be off pressing further up etc.

My contention is holding is what pirlo or alonso would do while defensive is what other negative players would do.

I would contend that you could make lucas a holding player and rafa did... you could make henderson one with a bit of coaching... if you had have beaten gerrard about the head when he was 24 you could make him one then... at 32? we'll see....

You cannot make scott parker or gareth barry into a more free player per the attached diagram

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zone 3 is where the holding midfielder sits but he is expected to be the guy who not only goes and make tackles and breaks up play but also be the guy who gets the first pass from the CBs or form the keeper or form whomever wins it back and he mis distribute well.... and not only in terms of pass completion but in terms of positivity.

this is why when real bought alonso their president was quoted as he was the only guy in the world capable of doing what they needed.

So extend this thought.... this diagram shows attacking play positions, not defensive ones. draw if for defending and the two midfielders drop back in to make it tight... if you are alonso in zone 3 or busquets... then you want ozil and khederia OR xavi and iniesta in front of you to pass to... so the question is looking at lucas if you press him do you shut lfc down?

you need a serious player in this role... my question is can henderson not fill this role or do we need to buy to complete with lucas... should we not spend in the box to box area and be done with it.

 

[Klopp's Mannschaft]

Lucas is fine, the quality around him sucks though.

You said Biscuits at Barca has Xavi and Iniesta ahead of him to look for and they're always available. Lucas has Hendo and Gerrard. That's a whole different prospect entirely. I actually think Lucas is very well suited to the third zone for us. Because we lack the quality in midfield to control the game and keep hold of the ball, he's that extra bit defensively minded - also important in the PL which is much more competitive. His passing is very good too. Whilst he's not going to ping the ball about like Alonso, he does more than play it forward and has bypassed the opposition midfield on several occasions this season. Fantastic player and perfectly suited for our team. Don't get me wrong, Hendo, Lucas and Gerrard has a nice balance, but they're not going to play tiki-taka Barca style. They don't have that quality. But they work well as a unit. I'd say it's a solid midfield, but our real quality comes from Suarez or Coutinho coming deep and linking up with the midfield. If you played someone like Alonso or Pirlo there right now instead of Lucas, I'd bet we'd get destroyed because we wouldn't have that defensive ability in there nor the energy.

I agree that if you shut down Lucas, you're free to control the whole game. We need better quality than Henderson and Gerrard next to him which is probably why we're chasing midfielders.

I would argue that in the PL, BR's initial plan (see MITO's diagram) needs to change so that one of the two players in zone 5 drops a little deeper (like how Xavi plays) and one pushes higher (Iniesta).

Pastore is very much like a Sakho or Sturridge type player. Bags of ability but never really pushed on. Pastore, I would bet, almost felt he'd made it after such a big money move and pay check boost. Complacency, laziness maybe. Either way, he needs a new start where he has to work hard. I think he could flourish at a club like Liverpool (or Spuds, for that matter) providing he's not on obscene wages. Got to earn them. Like Sakho though, 17mill area is a big gamble for us. We don't have that much cash floating around...