James McLean scum or dead right

they can do what they like but when you sign a contract with a team and go on tour you should behave. If the team you sign to is english there will be occasions if successful you have to respect an anthem.

As a rugby fan myself I've never seen an occasion a rugby player didn't stand there for ireland from ulster.

again as i said turned to the flags maybe came up from the usa side maybe no... but the whole thing was a mistake by west brom. again were every other west brom player from the Uk on the day bar him?

 

don't agree with that personally.

 

Why not ? It gives both sections a better footing playing as one team rather than 2 smaller ones. If you don't agree with it tell me this do you agree with team gb in the Olympics or should it be England, Scotland and Wales as separate teams ?

 

[QUOTE="moreinjuredthanowen, ]

As a rugby fan myself I've never seen an occasion a rugby player didn't stand there for ireland from ulster.
[/QUOTE]

There's a special Anthem for the Rugby an all inclusive Ireland's call. Then at home games Amhran na bhFiann gets played as well which I've seen Ulster players not sing to.

 

Tbh I don't know maybe he changed because he believed he could achieve more with the Republic (how misguided). My answer was a generalist view of Nationalist thinking.

 

It's amazing how politics and history override geography. Just take a look at the world, how many places does an imaginary line dictate lives and identities ....

 

Sorry mate I wasn't really questioning or attacking you, more like asking a rhetorical question

 

I'm guessing everywhere mate

 

No idea but I know there is a clear line around Warrington and Brighton to mark the areas where the ****s are being kept

 

Olympic squads and Golf slightly different..You can still chooses between the GB and Ireland teams.

The irony of the Rugby, Hockey and Cricket teams being all Ireland is that they are or were seen as the sports of the protestant ruling class both in the north and at the time in the south.

The rugby team shows an organization that has attempted inclusion & reconciliation and moving forward, hence the addition of a rugby anthem that is played in place of the Republic's anthem at all away matches and both are played at home matches. Players north and south stand respectfully for both and choose to sing, not sing to either. But then they all choose to be there which was my original point.

And Hash....cough....if it's good enough for the British Govt as a definition then those that want to in NI can claim to be British.

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/british-citizenship

Personally I see myself as both, Irish and British, like the Welsh, English and just about the Scottish lol..but then I see all this symbolism for what it is, social control by govts.

The same strategy the UK govt has used for centuries to get young men to join up and die for them has been used by every state and paramilitary organisation since the dawn of time both for recruitment & justification to the general public for state action.

For God and country
for the motherland
for the fatherland
for freedom
for the glory of the empire.

And every one of those groups has turned its back on its soldiers and their sacrifice when expedient to do so. It's why I honour the idea of the dead soldier in general rather than specifically as its obvious some individual soldiers that died were not heroes, some were bad, some died as cowards, some just died as Ill educated young boys...like the rest of us.

Have to admit as I got older I care less about my national identity and more about my local one as I live with the people next door and just down the road regardless of faith, colour, or politics.

 

Exactly

I didn't word my comment very well .... but the inference was that imaginary lines dictate who we are or see ourselves to be. There's so many facets to identity. Each individual chooses what they associate most with e.g people from Yorkshire wear their county badge with pride but to me, I never identify with my county. People from Ireland will have complex identities based on politics and history; people from England not so much. E and W Germany another case in point.

 

Good points frank and tbh i agree with most of what you wrote.

The only point i would pull you on is about the protestants.

The "troubles" were never about religion. Granted the majority of catholics were nationalist and the majority of protestants unionists but not all.

The religion angle suited both governments to neglect the issue for years.

P.s. youre like Big Ian with your i feel irish and british "those cows in N.I. are irish cows and shouldnt be classed as the same as those british cows with Bse."

 

Linguistic gymnastics...

We have British passports, tick British on the census, British in job applications... everything... just like anyone else. I get your point and I did geography at primary school too... but we both know that line of reasoning is petty with no substance.

Also NI isn't a province, it's a state... None of us say we're from NI and Ulster either. So that's irrelevant.

You might not like it for whatever reason but a century ago we decided to remain British in the same way the Irish decided to become independent. Both were legitimate and eminently correct decisions.

EDIT: Honestly don't want to argue. You're welcome to your opinion. Just be aware how arrogant the republican narrative sounds to someone actually from the unionist community in NI

On the Troubles... think an often overlooked factor is the socio-economic impact of migration into Belfast during industrialisation. Predominantly Catholic farmers coming to Belfast and endangering the existing Protestant (plantation) working class. That's when sectarianism and separation of housing areas etc really started in Belfast.

 

I don't think of myself as British; I'm English. If I have to be British because of this, that or the next thing, then so be it, but I would never declare myself British if asked my nationality.

In 1991 UK census I was 'White'. Some time later I became 'White British' - I don't know what 'they're' telling me I am now

 

There's a special Anthem for the Rugby an all inclusive Ireland's call. Then at home games Amhran na bhFiann gets played as well which I've seen Ulster players not sing to.[/QUOTE]

I've never seen them sing but they stand there and honestly i'd not have an idea if anyone back in the depths of time didn't for whatever reason. when in dublin they don't turn to a flag etc either.

 

here was the act of union repealled when the free state was set up then? I dunno... the act of union made ireland a part of england directly.

 

Our database at work is mental. Now when it asks you your nationality, if you say British it then asks for your ethnicity. Even though I was born in England, having 4 Irish grandparents I can't really say I'm ethnically English and have no Welsh or Scottish blood - so I'm classed as British Irish . You really couldn't make it up...

 

Ha Hash...we have ginger sheep up our way ..definitely Irish! I'm Ginger , I like sheep, as does Luv who is Welsh and British, so therefore I'm Irish and British...(Monty python "It's a witch logic" )

I wasn't meaning a religious divide either, more the old ruling class, that was largely protestant, had more cultural and financial links with mainland Britain and those three sports were played predominantly by them at their own schools and colleges and were seen for a long time as British sports...obviously the formation of the Republic and time since meant those colleges no longer held that identity.

It's just interesting that the "posh" sports lost the sectarian or split national identity quicker than the working class sports.

 

And Y has proposed one possible explanation for that I see...

 

We're all mongrels aren't we. I've got English, Irish, Welsh and French ancestry - sort that one out