Ivic out..

andytoprankin said:
Good spot. Shows what they know, though. Equally, you could ask, when was the last time the fans of the team of the reigning Manager of the Month want him sacked? ;)
Click to expand...
And when was the last time a Manager of the Month was appointed in spite of his team playing such dreadful football?

I must admit that, even though I'm glad he's gone, I feel slightly sorry for him. His record in Israel prior to coming here was really impressive and I think that most had high hopes that we had uncovered a managerial diamond. Sadly not...

I wonder if the Xisco Kid will still be coming?
 
What I will say on this is that the players did not seem happy on the pitch, either it was what they were being asked to do or the general atmosphere or both. I was speaking to a UEFA A coach the other day and he said he ran a session the other day where he just played football, saying we sometimes forget why you play football, he said the players had huge smiles on their faces and their work rate significantly improved.

What am I saying...I guess like all walks of life, if you are happy and enjoying something, you will be able to perform, and probably will perform to the best of your ability

Watford players recently have not looked happy, or like they were enjoying themselves, consequently they were playing within themselves not on purpose but as a natural reaction to being unhappy.
 
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Yes and I suspect the Pozzos saw that and had been been told by the players too.

Sometimes clubs will tell the players to get on with it but it does seem the owners do listen to the squad ahead of the manager and for most of the time it works.

I mean even now we are 5th despite being rubbish all season.
 
From the Athletic:

Vladimir Ivic had a sense of what might have been coming when his phone lit up just a few hours after the 2-0 defeat at Huddersfield. The voice on the end of the call said his services would no longer be required and the club would begin the process of finalising his contractual severance on Sunday. His representative and the lawyers would take it from here to negotiate the terms of his divorce from Watford, he was told. The obligatory statement was then released on the club’s website, the thanks and wishing well for the future formalities completed.

The relationship had lasted just 125 days and 22 games. But why did it end so soon?

The Athletic has learnt details of :
  • The disagreement between Troy Deeney and Ivic
  • The hierarchy’s concerns at the style of football and team changes
  • The players’ disillusionment with discipline, recovery and tactics
  • Some of the candidates that are in contention for the job
The Watford squad were notified about who was going to be in the starting line-up against Huddersfield the day before the game. That was when club captain Deeney was made aware he was going to be dropped despite scoring in his previous three matches. Ivic believed that the 32-year-old’s workload — only missing 22 minutes of action in the last five matches in the space of 17 days — meant he wasn’t ready to start the game. It would prove to be a big call.

The Athletic has been told that Ivic requested to speak to Deeney after the team had been revealed. The Watford captain was initially unavailable because he was having a massage but said he would come and find the head coach in the team hotel when he was finished. Thirty minutes later Deeney is understood to have gone to the team area of the hotel to find Ivic but he wasn’t there. It appears the failed rendezvous may have contributed to a cooling of the relations between the pair in the build-up to the game.

There were no visible signs of disagreement between Ivic and Deeney on Saturday. The striker took part in the warm-ups prior to the first and second halves on the pitch, however he didn’t go to stretch along the touchline at any stage in the second half. Ivic said he preferred to keep the reason for the fall-out in-house, however he did concede some ground when he was asked about the “discipline issue”, as he put it after the game when he pointedly focused his answer on the need to build team unity.

One source close to a squad member confirmed the “falling out” between head coach and captain the day before the game hadn’t helped the mood in the dressing room. Another source told The Athletic that Ivic had proven to be a “nightmare”, changing the team and formation too often and that the head coach hadn’t outlined any issues to do with ill-discipline to Deeney before talking about it with the media in the post-match press conference.

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2020/12/20055427/*****Images-1292125598.jpg

Deeney is understood to have been prepared to play, if called upon, from the bench. He’d hinted at a need to prove a point in recent weeks after scoring the winner against Birmingham when he bullishly said: “How many managers have come in and tried a different style of football but I still end up playing, so I must be doing something right.” Ivic is known to have become frustrated with the focus on Deeney in news conferences. One source close to the inner workings of the team said dropping Deeney had seen Ivic, “cut off his nose to spite his face”.

There had been disruption due to COVID-19 once again in the build-up to the game against Huddersfield with Kiko Femenia missing the trip due to contracting the virus. However replacing Deeney with Andre Gray, who has twice broken government lockdown rules and has been out of form since returning from injury, rather than starting with Stipe Perica or partnering the Croat with Deeney (which has been the most promising combination up front recently) helped to raise the stakes on the game for Ivic.

Watford’s self-inflicted wounds — Ben Foster’s costly pass and Etienne Capoue’s own goal — intensified the atmosphere on the pitch and in the directors’ box among the hierarchy. Owner Gino Pozzo, sporting director Cristiano Giaretta and chairman Scott Duxbury struggled to mask their discontent at times and then — after Giaretta had returned from a trip to the technical area in the half-time interval to find out from Ivic’s assistants what changes were planned — appeared exasperated that affirmative action to try to change the course of the game didn’t appear to be on the horizon. Ivic did alter the shape to a four-man defence and Watford looked more threatening but still struggled to find a cutting edge. The fact Ivic had made a stand on an issue with Deeney was the “final straw” according to one source.

One of the hierarchy recently confided to a source that the team had “lost their identity”, things were not how they should be, while Ivic appeared to lack the ability to kill off games. Although it is known they had been impressed with the integrity with which he had dealt with a catalogue of issues off the field including the uncertainty surrounding players’ futures and only starting a shortened pre-season with 10 players, it’s clear the way he was setting up his teams had started to grate.

One club insider said they struggled to see the benefits of a possession-based game and attacking players, especially Ismaila Sarr and Ken Sema, were too often being drawn infield rather than being able to exploit space in wide areas. Although points were being amassed — 34 from 20 games — and Watford remained in the play-off places, they ultimately felt Ivic was overcomplicating the proposition of playing the Championship. This despite him winning manager of the month in November. Ivic’s counter-argument to that, as he would touch on in press conferences, would be that Watford were still adapting to the physical nature of the division and the “process” would need more time to bear fruit.

But the problems appear to have gone deeper than just the style of play. The players are, at times, known to have complained about the workload in training, especially amid a busy schedule. They felt Ivic’s regime needed to factor in more recovery days for both their physical and mental wellbeing. One source close to a player says it had become a “big issue” within the squad and that a monotonous schedule, often including extra strength and conditioning work, became “all a bit much” at times. Players were also left frustrated when they were told on more than one occasion that they would have to stay at hotels after some away trips prior to warm-down sessions the following day rather than being allowed to go home for a night in their own beds.

Ivic’s focus on discipline, which is understood to have seen fines for such things as lateness rise significantly, is known to have surprised some members of the squad, who found the Serbian’s more reserved techniques in the dressing room difficult to deal with. Players, on more than one occasion, are known to have been left confused that Ivic wouldn’t say a great deal after games in the dressing room to the squad as a group, instead opting to say nothing on some occasions or say a few words to individual players. Some, however, are known to have respected his methods.

Not all the issues in the dressing room lay solely with the culture created by Ivic, whose aim, with little investment in the squad (he’d wanted a left-back and more creative midfield options), was to try to instil a winning mentality after a season of failure in the Premier League. It’s known the attitude of some players on and off the field when the going has got tough has also been an issue. It was described by one source as there needing to be a “band of brothers” ethos but often team-mates were getting “pissed off with a lack of effort.” Right from the start of his reign, Ivic had pointedly remarked that he would only select players that wanted to be at the club and fight for the team. He was aware of it too.

So what’s next?

It’s known that Gino Pozzo now wants to appoint a young motivational coach and the club have already held discussions with at least one prospective new coaching staff member, but it’s not clear whether he is the only one, what role he has been earmarked for or if he may favour alternative options. Former Valencia winger Xisco Munoz (below), who won La Liga and the UEFA Cup under stewardship of Rafa Benitez (whom he considers a mentor), is known to have confided in those close to him that he would know more about a potential opportunity with Watford today.

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2020/12/20055323/*****Images-50818259.jpg

Munoz, who turned 40 in September and shares the same agent as Javi Gracia, came through the academy system at Valencia and played for Spain at under-17 to 21 level. He also featured in Spain’s top division for Real Betis, Tenerife, Recreativo and Levante between 2000 and 2011 before spending four successful years with Dinamo Tbilisi.

The move, brokered by the same agent as Gerard Deulofeu and Kiko Femenia, saw Munoz score 79 goals in 129 matches. He was top scorer in the league in both 2012-13 and 2013-14, being named player of the year in the latter. He returned to play in Spain in 2014 with Gimnastic de Tarragona, where he stayed for two seasons before retiring and moving into coaching aged 36. He initially assisted Vicente Moreno, the current Espanyol head coach, who he’d been with at Valencia in his early days. He then had a brief spell at lower league side Pobla Mafumet before returning to Gimnastic in 2018.

He returned to Tblisi as part of Zaur Svanadze’s coaching staff in 2018 before working alongside Felix Vicente in 2019. His fellow Spaniard was officially named head coach as he had the requisite UEFA Pro licence (unlike Munoz) to compete in European competitions, although its known that Vicente took the lead on fitness while Munoz concentrated on coaching. Munoz does have an A licence, which is enough to coach in the Championship.

He left at the end of the season to continue his coaching training, but then returned in August of 2020 to take over on a short-term contract from Kakhaber Chkhetiani and guided them to their second consecutive title.

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2020/12/20055401/*****Images-1228562468.jpg

Munoz, who has favoured a 4-2-3-1 formation during the last two seasons and is known to promote an attacking style of play, has been described as a “very positive man who is funny during training but also strict,” by one source who knows him well. “He speaks English, is very friendly, very kind and attentive,” they continued. He left the club after the final 3-0 victory against Merani Tblisi on December 10 to return home to spend time with his family in Mallorca, where he was said to be waiting patiently to find out his next steps with his family.

That may be as a head coach or as assistant to another candidate. The agency that Munoz is with also represents former Villarreal head coach Javier Calleja, who could be an option. However, it is unlikely to be former Valencia coach Marcelino, who has been previously been linked with the role, with his representative saying there was “no chance” of it happening.

Watford will need to act quickly, whoever they go for. Although the squad were given two days off after the Huddersfield defeat, they’re expected to train for the majority of the week in preparation for their next match against leaders Norwich. Quarantine and visa restrictions — as they were when Ivic had to wait for his assistants to become available — will need to be carefully negotiated and the hierarchy will be mindful of registering a new head coach and their staff before new post-Brexit foreign employment rules come into force on January 1 2021. Gino Pozzo won’t be afraid to use a private jet if needed.

Having seen Hayden Mullins depart in the summer, if they can’t get someone in according to their planned timetable, they would need other existing staff members like Graham Stack, who assisted Mullins twice last season, and Omer Riza (Mullins successor as under-23 coach) to step in on a temporary basis. Whether they may opt for a permanent homegrown option that is available is unclear at this stage.

The Athletic has learnt it is unlikely to be former Bournemouth manager Eddie Howe, who went to games at Vicarage Road as a boy, who is understood to be enjoying his time away from the game and may only choose to consider roles in the summer. The likelihood is, having made another bold call — they are looking for their 13th permanent appointment in eight years — that Watford have the new man waiting in the wings.
 
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Markthehorn said:
From the Athletic:

Vladimir Ivic had a sense of what might have been coming when his phone lit up just a few hours after the 2-0 defeat at Huddersfield. The voice on the end of the call said his services would no longer be required and the club would begin the process of finalising his contractual severance on Sunday. His representative and the lawyers would take it from here to negotiate the terms of his divorce from Watford, he was told. The obligatory statement was then released on the club’s website, the thanks and wishing well for the future formalities completed.

The relationship had lasted just 125 days and 22 games. But why did it end so soon?

The Athletic has learnt details of :



    • The disagreement between Troy Deeney and Ivic
    • The hierarchy’s concerns at the style of football and team changes
    • The players’ disillusionment with discipline, recovery and tactics
    • Some of the candidates that are in contention for the job
The Watford squad were notified about who was going to be in the starting line-up against Huddersfield the day before the game. That was when club captain Deeney was made aware he was going to be dropped despite scoring in his previous three matches. Ivic believed that the 32-year-old’s workload — only missing 22 minutes of action in the last five matches in the space of 17 days — meant he wasn’t ready to start the game. It would prove to be a big call.

The Athletic has been told that Ivic requested to speak to Deeney after the team had been revealed. The Watford captain was initially unavailable because he was having a massage but said he would come and find the head coach in the team hotel when he was finished. Thirty minutes later Deeney is understood to have gone to the team area of the hotel to find Ivic but he wasn’t there. It appears the failed rendezvous may have contributed to a cooling of the relations between the pair in the build-up to the game.

There were no visible signs of disagreement between Ivic and Deeney on Saturday. The striker took part in the warm-ups prior to the first and second halves on the pitch, however he didn’t go to stretch along the touchline at any stage in the second half. Ivic said he preferred to keep the reason for the fall-out in-house, however he did concede some ground when he was asked about the “discipline issue”, as he put it after the game when he pointedly focused his answer on the need to build team unity.

One source close to a squad member confirmed the “falling out” between head coach and captain the day before the game hadn’t helped the mood in the dressing room. Another source told The Athletic that Ivic had proven to be a “nightmare”, changing the team and formation too often and that the head coach hadn’t outlined any issues to do with ill-discipline to Deeney before talking about it with the media in the post-match press conference.

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2020/12/20055427/*****Images-1292125598.jpg

Deeney is understood to have been prepared to play, if called upon, from the bench. He’d hinted at a need to prove a point in recent weeks after scoring the winner against Birmingham when he bullishly said: “How many managers have come in and tried a different style of football but I still end up playing, so I must be doing something right.” Ivic is known to have become frustrated with the focus on Deeney in news conferences. One source close to the inner workings of the team said dropping Deeney had seen Ivic, “cut off his nose to spite his face”.

There had been disruption due to COVID-19 once again in the build-up to the game against Huddersfield with Kiko Femenia missing the trip due to contracting the virus. However replacing Deeney with Andre Gray, who has twice broken government lockdown rules and has been out of form since returning from injury, rather than starting with Stipe Perica or partnering the Croat with Deeney (which has been the most promising combination up front recently) helped to raise the stakes on the game for Ivic.

Watford’s self-inflicted wounds — Ben Foster’s costly pass and Etienne Capoue’s own goal — intensified the atmosphere on the pitch and in the directors’ box among the hierarchy. Owner Gino Pozzo, sporting director Cristiano Giaretta and chairman Scott Duxbury struggled to mask their discontent at times and then — after Giaretta had returned from a trip to the technical area in the half-time interval to find out from Ivic’s assistants what changes were planned — appeared exasperated that affirmative action to try to change the course of the game didn’t appear to be on the horizon. Ivic did alter the shape to a four-man defence and Watford looked more threatening but still struggled to find a cutting edge. The fact Ivic had made a stand on an issue with Deeney was the “final straw” according to one source.

One of the hierarchy recently confided to a source that the team had “lost their identity”, things were not how they should be, while Ivic appeared to lack the ability to kill off games. Although it is known they had been impressed with the integrity with which he had dealt with a catalogue of issues off the field including the uncertainty surrounding players’ futures and only starting a shortened pre-season with 10 players, it’s clear the way he was setting up his teams had started to grate.

One club insider said they struggled to see the benefits of a possession-based game and attacking players, especially Ismaila Sarr and Ken Sema, were too often being drawn infield rather than being able to exploit space in wide areas. Although points were being amassed — 34 from 20 games — and Watford remained in the play-off places, they ultimately felt Ivic was overcomplicating the proposition of playing the Championship. This despite him winning manager of the month in November. Ivic’s counter-argument to that, as he would touch on in press conferences, would be that Watford were still adapting to the physical nature of the division and the “process” would need more time to bear fruit.

But the problems appear to have gone deeper than just the style of play. The players are, at times, known to have complained about the workload in training, especially amid a busy schedule. They felt Ivic’s regime needed to factor in more recovery days for both their physical and mental wellbeing. One source close to a player says it had become a “big issue” within the squad and that a monotonous schedule, often including extra strength and conditioning work, became “all a bit much” at times. Players were also left frustrated when they were told on more than one occasion that they would have to stay at hotels after some away trips prior to warm-down sessions the following day rather than being allowed to go home for a night in their own beds.

Ivic’s focus on discipline, which is understood to have seen fines for such things as lateness rise significantly, is known to have surprised some members of the squad, who found the Serbian’s more reserved techniques in the dressing room difficult to deal with. Players, on more than one occasion, are known to have been left confused that Ivic wouldn’t say a great deal after games in the dressing room to the squad as a group, instead opting to say nothing on some occasions or say a few words to individual players. Some, however, are known to have respected his methods.

Not all the issues in the dressing room lay solely with the culture created by Ivic, whose aim, with little investment in the squad (he’d wanted a left-back and more creative midfield options), was to try to instil a winning mentality after a season of failure in the Premier League. It’s known the attitude of some players on and off the field when the going has got tough has also been an issue. It was described by one source as there needing to be a “band of brothers” ethos but often team-mates were getting “pissed off with a lack of effort.” Right from the start of his reign, Ivic had pointedly remarked that he would only select players that wanted to be at the club and fight for the team. He was aware of it too.

So what’s next?

It’s known that Gino Pozzo now wants to appoint a young motivational coach and the club have already held discussions with at least one prospective new coaching staff member, but it’s not clear whether he is the only one, what role he has been earmarked for or if he may favour alternative options. Former Valencia winger Xisco Munoz (below), who won La Liga and the UEFA Cup under stewardship of Rafa Benitez (whom he considers a mentor), is known to have confided in those close to him that he would know more about a potential opportunity with Watford today.

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2020/12/20055323/*****Images-50818259.jpg

Munoz, who turned 40 in September and shares the same agent as Javi Gracia, came through the academy system at Valencia and played for Spain at under-17 to 21 level. He also featured in Spain’s top division for Real Betis, Tenerife, Recreativo and Levante between 2000 and 2011 before spending four successful years with Dinamo Tbilisi.

The move, brokered by the same agent as Gerard Deulofeu and Kiko Femenia, saw Munoz score 79 goals in 129 matches. He was top scorer in the league in both 2012-13 and 2013-14, being named player of the year in the latter. He returned to play in Spain in 2014 with Gimnastic de Tarragona, where he stayed for two seasons before retiring and moving into coaching aged 36. He initially assisted Vicente Moreno, the current Espanyol head coach, who he’d been with at Valencia in his early days. He then had a brief spell at lower league side Pobla Mafumet before returning to Gimnastic in 2018.

He returned to Tblisi as part of Zaur Svanadze’s coaching staff in 2018 before working alongside Felix Vicente in 2019. His fellow Spaniard was officially named head coach as he had the requisite UEFA Pro licence (unlike Munoz) to compete in European competitions, although its known that Vicente took the lead on fitness while Munoz concentrated on coaching. Munoz does have an A licence, which is enough to coach in the Championship.

He left at the end of the season to continue his coaching training, but then returned in August of 2020 to take over on a short-term contract from Kakhaber Chkhetiani and guided them to their second consecutive title.

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2020/12/20055401/*****Images-1228562468.jpg

Munoz, who has favoured a 4-2-3-1 formation during the last two seasons and is known to promote an attacking style of play, has been described as a “very positive man who is funny during training but also strict,” by one source who knows him well. “He speaks English, is very friendly, very kind and attentive,” they continued. He left the club after the final 3-0 victory against Merani Tblisi on December 10 to return home to spend time with his family in Mallorca, where he was said to be waiting patiently to find out his next steps with his family.

That may be as a head coach or as assistant to another candidate. The agency that Munoz is with also represents former Villarreal head coach Javier Calleja, who could be an option. However, it is unlikely to be former Valencia coach Marcelino, who has been previously been linked with the role, with his representative saying there was “no chance” of it happening.

Watford will need to act quickly, whoever they go for. Although the squad were given two days off after the Huddersfield defeat, they’re expected to train for the majority of the week in preparation for their next match against leaders Norwich. Quarantine and visa restrictions — as they were when Ivic had to wait for his assistants to become available — will need to be carefully negotiated and the hierarchy will be mindful of registering a new head coach and their staff before new post-Brexit foreign employment rules come into force on January 1 2021. Gino Pozzo won’t be afraid to use a private jet if needed.

Having seen Hayden Mullins depart in the summer, if they can’t get someone in according to their planned timetable, they would need other existing staff members like Graham Stack, who assisted Mullins twice last season, and Omer Riza (Mullins successor as under-23 coach) to step in on a temporary basis. Whether they may opt for a permanent homegrown option that is available is unclear at this stage.

The Athletic has learnt it is unlikely to be former Bournemouth manager Eddie Howe, who went to games at Vicarage Road as a boy, who is understood to be enjoying his time away from the game and may only choose to consider roles in the summer. The likelihood is, having made another bold call — they are looking for their 13th permanent appointment in eight years — that Watford have the new man waiting in the wings.
Click to expand...
Good article with lots of insightful info..
A lot of detail on Munoz which may be indicative.. Good to see he favours an attacking game
 
“Nobody at the club is in any doubt over Troy Deeney's high level of professionalism in his work. “Troy is quick to hold his hands up when his conduct has fallen short of the required standard but we are satisfied that was not the case.” “There will be no hangover from this. We must move on and Troy, as club captain, will play a major role in achieving our aims this season.” Chairman & CEO Scott Duxbury

This has to be the clearest indication that it was a problem with Ivic.
 
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Bolton's Boots said:
And when was the last time a Manager of the Month was appointed in spite of his team playing such dreadful football?

I must admit that, even though I'm glad he's gone, I feel slightly sorry for him. His record in Israel prior to coming here was really impressive and I think that most had high hopes that we had uncovered a managerial diamond. Sadly not...

I wonder if the Xisco Kid will still be coming?
Click to expand...
Oh, sure, I agree, I wish him no ill, but it really wasn’t working out. <ok>
 
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