So the Bony situation is a specific point, but it speaks to one of the larger problems. We cannot operate two scouting systems if they are not on the same wavelength in terms of philosophy, style, technique etc. And clearly, the likes of Bony and Shelvey, although good players, would not have been Martinez's choice, or Sousa's, or Rogers' when it comes to fitting the Swansea style as it has been since Martinez took over - they don't fit, they can't play tiki-taka, and they do not have the technique (Ki excepted). This lack of cohesion must be resolved. The domestic team have now spent 7M Euro for Ki, 13.9M Euro for Bony, and 5.9M Euro for Shelvey - that's a **** load of money and a **** load more money than Laudrup has spent on the players he has brought in using is European system. Ki has gone on loan and Bony and Shelvy are not good fits for the money. Laudrup spends smarter without question and the domestic scouting guys need to be shut down or recalibrated, and their hands taken off the cheque book. Since Bony is not a working fit right now, and Alvaro is too inexperienced .... this leads to one solution to the Michu "problem". Put him back up front, put JDG behind him, and put Canas alongside Britton. Rock solid midfield defensively and the smarts to attack and not get in each others way. Put Pablo on the field with them and you have our most effective, efficient combination. Routledge and Dyer then have to figure out who wants to play by bringing their best, most consistent game. Michu delivers given the chance and works damn hard regardless of the dross and circumstances around him. He's the guy you build a team around. So Bony had better figure it out or find himself on the bench. I can't see ML letting this misfitting arrangement continue much longer. I wouldn't be surprised if he went with Michu up front against Cardiff and played his strongest midfield behind him. I hope ML is not being pressured to play Bony because of the money paid - that would be the dumbest ****ing thing we could ever do
There was me thinking Bony was ML's choice, can you see the board paying that sort of cash for a striker the manager did not want?
Refer to NJ's post #12 ...... If this is true then my argument follows. Regardless, I think we are lacking effectiveness with the current use of Bony. At what point does ML put winning games above giving Bony time to adjust. It really is too bad. I have posted a number of times on other threads that ML's use of Bony is odd if he was his first choice. ML probably thought .... Bony, top scorer par excellence in Holland .... OK, not my first choice, but perhaps I can do something with him .... they're not giving me the players I want and I don't want Moore any more. ML kept saying after Bony was signed ... "we are looking for a different type of forward" .... he ended up with Alvaro, a totally different type of forward. It all makes perfect sense if NJ's statement is true.
In summary, in search of goals and better attacking options ML has 3 choices: a) persist with Bony and hope he comes through and we get results; b) swap Alvaro in and out and hope he gets his sea legs; c) Michu goes up front and we play a solid midfield behind him. (c) will work, we know that, and hope is not a strategy. It all comes down to patience over results and the players' (everybody) ability to adapt. Eliminate the price tag from the equation to neutralize bias .... what would you do? I'd revert to Michu up front.
The more Bony plays the more he becomes familiar with our system and our players. He has proven talent. You cant just expect someone to come to a new club (not to mention a new country) and be an instant hit. Look at Bale at Real Madrid. Now he is blatently world class, but again its taking time for him to adapt. The biggest problem for me with football is the instant demand for results. We could drop Bony now, risk him losing all confidence then try many different formations hoping one clicks. Or we could play Bony, take our time in intergrating him into our system and reap the rewards afterwards. They dont become bad players overnight. Even after all the critism though, the fact still remains he has 7 goals in 14 games. Not bad for someone who people are considering dropping from the team.
The bulk of Bony's goals are against mediocre Europa league opposition during the early stages. Recently we are not effective at using him, we are like a blunt instrument around the opposition's penalty box; not entirely Bony's fault, not blaming him at all, but it is what it is. Perhaps Pablo's return will provide the catalyst. I understand the need to persevere with him and reap the rewards later; makes perfect sense without the threat of relegation. The question really is when is "later" and this has to be factored against the fact that there are only 38 games in a Prem season, 40+ points needed to be safe. We are 24% through the season with 27% of the points required for minimum safety - it would not be a good idea to take safety down to the last few games of the season. Perhaps we should get safe first, play the combination we know works and then work Bony hard in the balance of the games to click. It comes down to ML and his calculus - how close he thinks this setup is to being productive, and how much he values results over the adjustment of and to a player he is perhaps not 100% vested in.
I query NJ's source to be honest. No offence but anyone can say anything without naming a source can't they? Not saying NJ hasn't been told something but by whom and how would he/ she know the Bony situation? It's just tittle tattle. Anyway it doesn't really matter. We have Bony now and Laudrup has persisted with him. Having looked at Vasquez last week I think he'll revert to either Bony, or as you say YJ, sticking Michu back up there. At least we know that's effective even if it isn't his favoured position. Whatever the case, I come back full circle to my original point - it's in Laudrup's hands to put this right.
Economically it would make no sense whatsoever to drop Bony. We have invested £12 million plus in him and, if we drop him, two things might happen. He will be pissed off and want out, or he will lose his confidence and struggle to get back in the team. Either way his transfer value would plummet. Okay, measure that against the lost revenue we would suffer if we were relegated through lack of goals and it's a no-brainer. He's out. But it's ridiculous to even contemplate that. Bony IS scoring: he IS creating: he IS contributing by ruffling opposing defences, something we haven't had in our team for a long while. That we are having this discussion is quite preposterous to be honest. We are having it because we are a Premier League team with NOT ONE player (Pablo apart) able to consistently cross a quality ball. We have no one (Pablo apart) who can consistently find that cute pass to open up defences. Bony was the top scorer in a very decent league at better than a goal a game. He's got a cannon of a shot, knows where the goal is and is good in the air. Is it asking too much to give such a striker some reasonable service so he can do it for us? We shouldn't be targeting Bony for criticism. The culprits are those in midfield who don't possess even the basic skills required to give him service worthy of the name. They are dreadful. Also we seem to be too preoccupied in taking that extra pass, that extra touch, in and around the box. What is needed, is for our players to fire the ball at goal the first chance they get then just watch Bony pick up his fair share of poacher's goals. Instead we faff about then faff about some more looking for the perfect opening while the defenders get organised in double marking Bony... and Michu if he's in there as well. So, for me, let's not get rid of Bony. Let's get rid of those who don't know the basics of their job. They are there to create chances, or score them. They are NOT there to rack up their passing stats. Another thought, it's not just Bony who's getting brassed off. Take a look at Michu. He's looking totally out of sorts and fed up with what's happening as well and I don't blame either of them. Incidentally, watch for our prize asset looking for a way out of the club sometime soon if this state of affairs isn't sorted.
Agree totally, ivor. Your point "Bony IS scoring: he IS creating: he IS contributing by ruffling opposing defences, something we haven't had in our team for a long while" has been missed on some. He's getting abuse from those up the M4 too so I really hope he proves everyone wrong this Sunday. The point I was making in this thread wasn't about Bony though - it was that our tempo has completely disappeared. There may be other things that aren't quite right but it was noticeable last week when we upped the pace of the game early in the 2nd half we started to play a lot better. I can't for the life of me understand why Laudrup doesn't get this team to do it from the off.
Nobody said the manager didnt want, its more to do with the fact he is willing to work with and improve players that will be at Swansea city after he has left,that is the reason we have the system we have. Laudrup is in the loop with everything its not like the club DOF has just gone out and signed a **** load of players that the manager doesnt want,thts just not the case,but it explains why they dont slot right into the team,they are signings with one eye on the future where as Laudrup is dealing pretty much in the present,its an approach that i think is pretty smart all things considered.
Look you query away it makes no difference to me, beleive it not beleive it whatever, the truth is in your own eyes with what you see on the pitch . Does shelvey look a Swans player to you ? honestly ? Why doesnt the team get set up to play through Bony and supply him with what he needs to score ? Why is Ki on loan and why did we sign JDG who was a player in that exact same position ? Bony is not being used correctly but is still scoring goals, now i was firmly in the camp that thought he was purely a Laudrup signing until i was told this the other day,but on reflection it all fits and explains why we are seeing the formation not accomadate him specifically. Bony is going to be coached into Laudrups style not the other way around ,for all we know this may be a player who our next manager has earmarked as a star of the future! Huw has said himself that the club are already looking at the next guy after Laudrup . From what i have been told ,there is an agreement to bring in players that Laudrup is more than happy to work with and there are player Laudrup specifically wants, it all fits when you consider this is likely to be his last season with us, why would/could he promise the earth to potential new players knowing he isnt going to be around after the season ? JDG ,another loan Alvaro, loan chico 1 yr left after this season Pablo 1 yr left after this season Michu, signed extension but with the understanding of laudrup staying longer. When you look at it more objectively we cant have all his signings at the club knowing alot of them will have the hump and sulk when he buggers off ! im sure its a big pressure off laudrup himself to be fair, he doesnt have to worry about signing players and them expecting him to be here,a compromise is the best solution with one eye on the future. Yound players like amat and pozuelo have taken a step up in money and career by coming to swansea anyway and they have a good years coaching under them with a top coach like Laudrup . Hopefully Laudrup stays here but if you think like he is off in the summer our transfer stratergy makes perfect sense, nothing is over his head its all done as a partnership between our DOF (huw) and Laudrup .
I am a massive fan of Bony , his quality for me is un doubted, it will take time for him to adapt but as you say his goals tally so far is not to be sniffed at
I agree with you there, and I'm not disputing that what you say may be true, NJ but I'm sure you'll understand why I emphasise the word may in the absence of a quoted source. Not having a go at you. My point is that this is rather irrelevant now isn't it? We are where we are. Laudrup, at least up until last week, has persevered with Bony and imo Vasquez has done nothing to warrant a start on Sunday. I think Bony will start and get amongst them from the off. I would LOVE IT if he played a blinder against that lot, but it will depend on an increased tempo from us and some decent balls into him.
Yes KJ I can see you mean no malice in your words and of course its up to each individual to decide what they think I personally think that Bony will play his part this season and get 10 prem goals ,he is a cracking signing and we are yet to see the best of him ,but I also think we will play with Michu up front just like we have in the other big games, which again points to the fact that Wilf is not getting the billing he perhaps should for our "marquee signing"
It's astonishing that someone can not only believe, but actually repeat, a rumour that Huw Jenkins would have spent TWELVE MILLION POUNDS on a player without the managers say so. It's a complete contradiction to the way that the club has managed it's finances over the last ten years. You might as well claim that Cardiff fans have suddenly developed spines. It would be a turnaround of almost mythic proportions. Laudrup wanted him. Laudrup has thus far failed to get the best out of him, displaying a level of tactical inflexibility that does not augur well for his ambitions of managing at the highest levels.
Do you have a problem reading ? Nobody said anything about the manager not having the say so, he gets the last word on everything, but due to the fact the club has 2 scouting networks and a longer term transfer policy we have a working relationship where laudrups short term is balanced with Swansea s long term . I'd be worried if that wasn't the case to be honest! Laudrup is not likely to be here long term,but hue being director of football will be. Everything is done together with one eye on the present and one eye on the future. Of course laudrup likes bony as a player but he doesn't fit into our system quite yet,that's obvious to us all,he will however be integral to us as the season moves on
Well, I repeat, Lone: I don't think it matters now but I'd also be astonished if Laudrup didn't want Bony but NJ didn't say that. As I recall wasn't he the big signing that stopped the managerial rumblings in its tracks? But whether he instigated the deal or merely OK'd it doesn't matter one jot to me nor I suspect most Swans fans. I'm not sure about your 'tactical inflexibility' point though. Since the days of Rodgers we are less predictable which is probably a good thing. Remember the lack of a Plan B? I do accept that Bony does seem like a square peg in a round hole at the moment and even though I maintain it's down to Laudrup to sort this out some responsibility must fall on the player to fit in with the way we play. As ivor says, he's been making some progress in that.
Something I must add, it's difficult to sign top level players knowing that the manager may leave after one season having our policy works
Which is it? If Laudrup okayed the signing, then he's a Laudrup signing. If he didn't want him he'd have said no. Might not have been his first choice, indeed I'm reliably informed that he wasn't, but he was still happy with him. There's a lack of a Plan B now KJ. Everything goes through the middle of the park. There's no width, substitutions are fairly predictable (count the number of times Routledge goes off after 60 minutes), and the default reaction when Laudrup thinks we're facing a tough game is to pack the midfield. In terms of the quality and entertainment value of our play we've gone backwards from last season.
As I said in my post, there's a difference between signing a player and giving an "ok" for a player to be signed - one implies demand, the other implies acquiescence. ML may not have pursued him because he realized he wasn't a good fit and would take some work to achieve that. However, our domestic scouts, based on NJ's post, seemed to think it was a good buy for 13.9M euro. For 13.9M euro we acquired a project not a solution. We also spent 5.9M euro for Shelvey, again from the domestic scouts, and again more of a project not a solution, and whatever we all think about Rogers, he's no fool and wouldn't off-load somebody he thought he could either blarney or coach into production. Michu is a solution and was from day one! Pablo is a solution if he can stay fit. Amat looks like he's a solution. We seem to have a different sense of value from two different scouting teams and two different approaches to meeting a need - one team likes to buy projects regardless of money and another prefers to buy solutions for good value. Regardless of long term / short term thinking, this is an imbalance and questionable methods of valuation and use of funds that needs to be addressed. Buying projects are fine if they are young and cost less than say .... Michu. Buying projects when they are the most expensive player you've ever bought needs some explaining - regardless of the long term benefit, that benefit still has to be realized and adds risk and extra cost to the equation plus the opportunity cost when those funds could have been used for something else .... like a solution.
