It only takes one game, but............

[Oldsparkey]

The worst thing that's happened to City this past fortnight since the Coventry game was that we won 4 on the bounce. It gave us belief that we had the management/player setup right and all would be fine - well yesterday scotched that in 90 minutes. It was obvious well before half time to those of us watching who lack any control over the situation, that those who actually do haven't a clue how to change it.

After Cov, Harris was dead in the water and in all probability Tan told him as much. Then all of a sudden we won some games and he was a hero. Yesterday was a reality check and if it proves one thing, it's that his decision making at this level is substandard and will hold this club back. Nice enough bloke who in all fairness got us to the playoffs last season, but on the back of a freak covid interuption that otherwise would probably have seen us fizzle out mid table.

Having said that, I don't think it's just Harris. This "group" of players as he likes to call it are way below the squad standards of that current top 6 in particular and tactically inept. Yesteday's game was a stark reminder of the direction we need to go - what we have throughout the club is barely average in both management and footballers. There again, I suppose if we beat Brum on Wednesday, all will be fine again.

 

[Hilts24]

We will beat Brum and all will be fine.

6 games 15 points. Championship winning form.

Moores absence is the worry and rearranging the midfield.

Wilson 10 and probably if fit Junior back.

Its Vaulks and Pack im comcerned about.

 

[Oldsparkey]

We will beat Brum and all will be fine.

It'll need some better judgement and decision making from Harris. The "group" had better regroup PDQ. We're definitely limited but need far better use of what we've got - that's down to those in charge. No more papering over the cracks.

It was tactically inept and the players adopted roles on the pitch they thought were right rather than planned.

Fair play to Mark Harris, he kept running out wide to drag their central defenders out creating gaps in the middle to exploit, but no one stepped up for City. All Ralls and Vaulks did was to adopt the midfield thug mode.

Wilson and Ojo were like fish out of water - aimless and lacking in confidence through poor management of their skills. Wilson is wasted the way he's being played and anyone who thinks Ojo is a flying winger had better think again - he can be tricky but he has no pace at all.

No team is perfect, but we're also flawed at the back. Bennett was taken to the cleaners by Roberts, and on the other side Bacuna has a go but should replace Ralls in the middle for Brum and try one of our 3 left backs on the right.

CB's should be OK. Morrison is slow but strong - the real bonus is that Nelson is developing into a class act in the middle.

Smithies is a fine goalkeeper.

 

[irishbluebird]

This "group" of players as he likes to call it are way below the squad standards of that current top 6 in particular.

Totally agree Sparkey and therein lies the problem. Yesterday showed how Swansea are way ahead of us. Let’s face it they played us off the park. Getting a couple of new players in the transfer window will not disguise the fact that slick, fast, passing football will surpass hoof ball every time. We got away with it with Colin in charge but with the inevitable relegation that followed.
I believe that we need to start again and build a squad capable of competing with the ‘footballing’ teams and that starts by recruiting a management team who have the experience and ability to do that, coupled with the financial backing of Mr Tan.

 

[remote]

that starts by recruiting a management team who have the experience and ability to do that, coupled with the financial backing of Mr Tan.

Our noisy neighbours have shown what can be done with a rooky manager and very few senior signings, but including a bunch of youngsters.

 

[Oldsparkey]

Isn't anyone else going to say something on the subject of yesterday and that crap, or are we just going to pretend it didn't happen?

 

[clingo]

I think it's a continuing, long term issue at the club that there appears to be no real ambition. Given our resources, the stadium and our potential fan base, we should be reaching out much further. Surely we should be able to match the intent of Bournemouth at the very least. Like everyone on this board, I'm deeply grateful to Vincent Tan for saving the club and injecting some hope. However, it's clear that he's not a footballing man and I can't get rid of the idea that he still has the wrong people advising him. In my eyes, our record in hiring a string of mediocre managers is testament to this. Surely we want a manager with vision that won't just eventually get us to the top flight again but also have a chance of keeping us there. As it stands, we have a manager who at best is mid table material. We must have spent a fortune on poor signings both on and off the pitch (not all under NH) and this again brings into doubt the quality of the advice that VT is getting. Last season we got into the playoffs by virtue of the clubs around us having dismal ends to their season. We'll probably survive this season and get wins against very poor clubs and those having a temporary dip in form. It's always great to win a few games and you can only beat what's in front of you, but surely our ambition should be greater than being the best of a really poor bunch. Anyway, I've said all this before, so my apologies for sounding like a broken record.

 

[Oldsparkey]

I think it's a continuing, long term issue at the club that there appears to be no real ambition. Given our resources, the stadium and our potential fan base, we should be reaching out much further. Surely we should be able to match the intent of Bournemouth at the very least. Like everyone on this board, I'm deeply grateful to Vincent Tan for saving the club and injecting some hope. However, it's clear that he's not a footballing man and I can't get rid of the idea that he still has the wrong people advising him. In my eyes, our record in hiring a string of mediocre managers is testament to this. Surely we want a manager with vision that won't just eventually get us to the top flight again but also have a chance of keeping us there. As it stands, we have a manager who at best is mid table material. We must have spent a fortune on poor signings both on and off the pitch (not all under NH) and this again brings into doubt the quality of the advice that VT is getting. Last season we got into the playoffs by virtue of the clubs around us having dismal ends to their season. We'll probably survive this season and get wins against very poor clubs and those having a temporary dip in form. It's always great to win a few games and you can only beat what's in front of you, but surely our ambition should be greater than being the best of a really poor bunch. Anyway, I've said all this before, so my apologies for sounding like a broken record.

Don't apologise for having an opinion and re-stating it. Others might disagree, but that's what this forum is about.

In my own opinion, you are spot on - the club is being navigated through its' recent existence with a lack of vision at the top.

I exclude Vincent Tan from that statement - he is being guided by others and seriously needs to look at that if he wants sustained success at the club.

 

[Oldsparkey]

Great article and right on the money............

https://viewfromtheninian.com/2020/12/14/cardiff-city-need-a-revolution-not-evolution/

 

[irishbluebird]

Great article and right on the money............

https://viewfromtheninian.com/2020/12/14/cardiff-city-need-a-revolution-not-evolution/

Totally agree with this. Hope someone at the club reads it!

 

[Oldsparkey]

Totally agree with this. Hope someone at the club reads it!

That "someone at the club" would have to be Tan - otherwise it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

 

[remote]

Great article and right on the money............

https://viewfromtheninian.com/2020/12/14/cardiff-city-need-a-revolution-not-evolution/

A good read with a number of points that have been highlighted on here for months / years.
The particular one for me is the lack of footballing nous on the board.
That leads to a long term strategy and footballing direction.
Bouncing around managers is an expensive way of doing things.

 

[clingo]

Great article and right on the money............

https://viewfromtheninian.com/2020/12/14/cardiff-city-need-a-revolution-not-evolution/

You'll have noticed from my previous post on this thread that I agree with the article. The question about the fan's patience is an issue as demonstrated in the past. But, most are bright enough to see progress if and when it happens. Vive la revolution!

 

[william5551]

If they do do you think anything will change I doubt it,at the moment my glass is half empty,i have been a fan of this club for 64 years I remember the days of the Deweys owning the club and others till now,but do they ever take a little bit of notice what the fans are saying or wanted,and without the fans there would not be football ,just look at whats happening today with this virus,i just hope that my glass will soon be full again,and we are playing entertaining football again which is what we deserve. just saying.

 

[BrizzleBluebird]

OK, after a rebuke from Sparky on "cross threading" conversations that sort of align to this that BfB and I were about to get into on the Premier League Watch thread, I thought I'd throw it up here.

The pain of defeat to the Jacks and the manner of that defeat I believe has clouded some judgement and is again eroding confidence in Neil Harris.

There are lots of examples of teams and fans not being very careful in what they wish for.

Arsenal fans griping that Wenger had to go. They had after all missed out on Champions League qualification after putting up with ONLY achieving that every year and JUST the odd FA Cup win.
Clearly not good enough.

Chelsea not being content with winning the Champions League under Di-Matteo because it wasn't done with style.

Man Utd discontent with Moyes.

Stoke thinking they should be pushing on to the next level after years of mid-table mediocrity under Pulis.

Lord knows how many managers the likes of Forest, Derby and Watford have had...

Everton courting then regretting Silva after seeking a more glamorous and dynamic coach.

Even the Jacks took some time to accept their "Swansalona" football, becoming impatient under several managers before the style became ingrained in their club.

I honestly don't believe our fans DO have the patience to wait for a true change in style and will be screaming at the players to "get it forward" quicker if we end up adopting a cheap knock off version of Man City...

Harris started to try change things but results didn't come instantly and fans called for his head.

If we'd done to the Jacks what we did to Stoke and won it late with a couple of set pieces there'd be little to no gripes and we'd have all been cockahoop.

I'm not saying Harris is beyond reproach or question and I do think he stuffed up by going 442 on Saturday. Warnock even did an interview saying when he did that last year it was a mistake. Harris clearly didn't see the article before the game!

I think given Harris's record with us so far (I believe during his tenure with us, only Brentford had picked up more points before Saturdays game or so the commentary went) then has HAS earned the right to see this season through.

We really should learn from many others mistakes and be careful what we wish for.

Take the wrong turn and we could be the next Sunderland.

 

[Oldsparkey]

The pain of defeat to the Jacks and the manner of that defeat I believe has clouded some judgement and is again eroding confidence in Neil Harris.

Harris started to try change things but results didn't come instantly and fans called for his head.

We really should learn from many others mistakes and be careful what we wish for.

Take the wrong turn and we could be the next Sunderland.

Take the right turn and we could be the next Wolves or Southampton.

 

[BluefromBridgend]

I'll try not to think too loudly.

All valid points Brizzle but football is littered with clubs who have held on to managers for too long rather than make a needed change. Wenger at Arseanal for instance (although some of their fans would seem to want him back given their present situation).

Sticking or twisting is a very fine art and the success or otherwise of the decision will depend on the skills and experience of the board tasked with the decision.

With many of our board having been around for close to 10 years, or more in Borley's case, you would have thought most of those attributes would have been acquired.

Their has been criticism on here for them not being "football people". How long does someone have to be involved with football to be granted that accolade?

The factor we don't have knowledge of is VT's ongoing influence. It is obvious his football knowledge was pretty slim in his early years but while it appears he has sat back and left Choo, Dalman etc driving the bus, is he still giving instructions, albeit very quietly? And are those instructions to proceed with caution when now, maybe, more radical action is needed?

The article OS posted above was a very up to date view on the management structure needed to move forward with the current shape of football.

It is obvious we do not currently have that and to make the changes suggested would need a clear vision and intent from the board. Even more necessary would be ongoing finance by VT plus patience from him and the fans.

Do we have that? I don't know about VT's financial position or his aspirations but as fans we are a pretty impatient lot. Were the suggested structural changes be made, would we accept that and be prepared to tolerate several seasons of mediocrity or worse to reach a playing style deemed to be in line with current trends- which could change again in 4 or 5 years time.

It is high risk and could all go nipples upwards but in saying that we are currently facing mediocrity or worse with our current style, or lack of it.

Sorry for the ramble. I don't know the answer but what is being served up now is not good, despite the 4 consecutive wins which could easily be followed by 4 consecutive defeats. Were that to happen I would expect Harris to leave and whoever replaced him would be a pretty good indicator of the board's intentions and forward vision.

 

[BrizzleBluebird]

Take the right turn and we could be the next Wolves or Southampton.

Southampton are an interesting example.

When we beat them 1-0 at their place under Warnock in our last Prem season, many of their fans had had enough of the team, the board AND the manager (despite him having not been in post for too long from memory).

Fast forward a couple of years and a little bit of pain and patience and they're riding high with the same board and manager.

If they have a "successful" season this year and achieve a European place of some description and then endure a mediocre mid-table season after that, do we think the fans would stick behind the manager?

 

[Oldsparkey]

Southampton are an interesting example.

When we beat them 1-0 at their place under Warnock in our last Prem season, many of their fans had had enough of the team, the board AND the manager (despite him having not been in post for too long from memory).

Fast forward a couple of years and a little bit of pain and patience and they're riding high with the same board and manager.

If they have a "successful" season this year and achieve a European place of some description and then endure a mediocre mid-table season after that, do we think the fans would stick behind the manager?

Not in the post too long? That defeat by us was Hassenhuttl's very first game in charge at Southampton - he hadn't been there for over a year like Harris has here.

I'm all for patience but it would have been a little bit impatient of Southampton if they'd dumped him after his first game.....

 

[clingo]

Southampton are an interesting example.

When we beat them 1-0 at their place under Warnock in our last Prem season, many of their fans had had enough of the team, the board AND the manager (despite him having not been in post for too long from memory).

Fast forward a couple of years and a little bit of pain and patience and they're riding high with the same board and manager.

If they have a "successful" season this year and achieve a European place of some description and then endure a mediocre mid-table season after that, do we think the fans would stick behind the manager?

Strong argument as always Brizzle. You may not have chosen the correct game to illustrate your point but there is no doubt that Saints fans did have a problem with Hasenhuttl at certain times. However, in my eyes there are fundamental differences between that situation and where we find ourselves at the moment. To me, Hasenhuttl despite early results had real talent as a manager and a board that recognised it. Harris I believe doesn't have that sort of talent and has a board that doesn't recognise it.
Opinions of football fans eh?