That’s why you don’t fight 27. You negotiate with 27. If the 27 take your suggested approach then by your apparent logic we just cave in and accept whatever they propose. Not that clever really. And not that good trade wise. If they aren’t prepared to negotiate then yes we look for new markets in the rest of the world which incidentally is bigger than the EU. And yes we make it as difficult for EU countries as possible if they make it difficult for us. The businesses in Germany, Spain, Belgium, Holland and Italy want to trade with us and need to trade with us just as much as we need to trade with them. A fair deal should be achievable once the politicians and bureaucrats stop peacocking and start to consider what’s best for everyone. I know it may not happen but you can but try. But what you don’t do is shy away from a fight we didn’t start and just give in. What too many people seem to fail to remember is that we had a vote as to whether we left or stayed in the EU. The vote said leave. It’s called democracy. Given we voted to leave that is what we need to do. The EU may not like it and lots of people in this country may not like it but that’s what we voted to do. Given we are leaving it would be sensible for all involved to stop acting like children and start acting like grownups and to acknowledge that it’s in everybody’s best long term interests to negotiate a fair deal for both sides. If I was leading negotiations (and my wife says it’s lucky I’m not) then the negotiations would have taken a much different route. TC: Are we discussing everything? EU: No, we want to discuss one thing at a time. TC: Okay, no deal it is. If you change your minds here’s my number, call me.
Well, disagree with just about everything said there. A slim majority of the population voted to leave the EU at a time when no one knew what that would mean. There was never a vote to leave the customs union, for example. Many of the people who voted to leave did so on the basis of inaccurate (and I would suggest dishonest) promises of what would be possible. Most of the people who voted leave now furiously resist the suggestion that the people should again be consulted about a question whose meaning we will actually know. As for those dastardly EU types, they have said that if we want to be outside the customs union, we can have a free trade agreement like Canada and other countries outside the union. If we want to be inside the customs union but outside the EU, we can do that like other countries such as Norway. If we ant to be outside the customs union but have all the benefits of the union, sorry that is not possible. Does this come as a surprise to anyone ? As to the statement that we didn't start whatever fight might happen, I really don't follow that at all. The person who asks for a divorce is usually the one who starts all the nastiness that follows.
While I agree with a lot of what you say I think that if there is another vote there shouldn't be an option to drop the whole idea and stay in. We voted to leave and so any new referendum should just be on the terms of how we leave. This should range from any proposed deal by our government, through Norway-like and Canada-like to no deal. while I personally would rather the UK was part of the EU I think it would cause a huge amount of ill-feeling if the majority who voted to leave felt they were being ignored. The trouble is I think that the negotiating issues now come down to the Irish border for which there is not an easy solution. Well there actually is but I don't think the people of Northern Ireland would like it and as the DUP are one of the parties keeping the Conservatives in power I am sure it won't be on the table.
While I do understand what you say, if the majority of the people now think (and perhaps always would have thought): "No, I don't want to leave if those are the options", why should we leave just because a majority would have been in favour of leaving if the impossible had been possible ? It's like asking a teenager if he would like to leave home. He says "sure". You then point out that means either paying rent or being homeless. He says that if those are the choices, he'll stay at home. He only said he wanted to leave because someone told him he could stay in a mansion for free. Seems a bit rough to turf him out just because he believed Gove.
I seriously doubt that those that voted Leave did so because they thought we could stay in the Customs Union. I suspect that it came down to a better control on immigration and a perception of a lack of control over our own affairs. They would also regard any vote now that included a "forget it" option as essentially stacked against them as the minority that voted for Remain in the last one would now vote en-mass to forget it and their votes would be split between the various Deal/No Deal options. It would however be interesting (and fairer) to have a vote though that was: Do You still want Out - Yes or No If Yes which option do you prefer - Norway-style, Canada-style, A government proposed and approved other deal, No deal Those that No (i.e. Remain) can do so but would get no say in the deal if the majority vote Yes.
I think a good portion of the Leave voters believed what they had been told: We will be able to control our borders but have full access to the European market. if that belief influenced 5% of the Leave voters, that would change the outcome of the referendum. with respect to asking a fair question, I think the following would do: 1. Would you rather stay in the EU or leave on the terms of (whatever deal is on the table) ? Yes/No 2. Would you rather stay in the EU or to leave with no deal ? Yes/No If a majority votes to leave on either of the options open, fine. If a majority votes to leave on both options, biggest majority wins. If the majority prefer staying to either of the possible options, its called democracy, as the Leavers like to say.
How come it always seems to be suggested that it’s only the Leave voters who seem to have been misinformed? This is getting very Scottish Independence like. We’ll have a democratic vote to see if we stop or leave and let the people decide but if we don’t vote (in the Scottish case) to leave then we’ll keep having democratic votes until the people get it right and we vote to leave. The reverse for the EU issue. It doesn’t matter how small a majority voted to leave as only a majority of those voting was the requirement and the majority voted to leave. Also to say the public were misinformed is a red herring as well. It could easily be argued that the public are misinformed prior to every General Election but we don’t revisit each General Election vote on that premise. The facts were out there for those who wanted to find them prior to the vote. If people weren’t bothered to find them then, then what is there to say they will for the next vote? Anyone with half a brain knew that the leaving terms wouldn’t be known until we’ll after the vote as they had to be negotiated. Anyone with half a brain knew that the EU would not simply give us all we asked for as that would open the door to the EU being dismantled. We are where we are. It’s a mess but on the basis we democratically voted to leave that is what the Government should secure. If only to ensure a victory for democracy. As an aside I actually voted to remain. I respect how democracy works though and acknowledge I can’t always get what I want but have to respect the wishes of the majority even if I don’t agree with their wishes. Too much of the Remain campaign smacks of a child not getting its own way and wanting its ball back.
I'm not saying that only the Leave voters were misinformed, though the remain voters at least knew what they were voting for (the status quo) while the leave voters didn't. What I am saying is that know one could have known in 2016 what "leave" meant. Pretty soon we will. We should see if people really like the idea once they know what it is. In a company law setting, for example, a vote might be put to the directors whether they want to sell an asset based upon a £5 million valuation. If the vote is positive, you then invite offers. If the best offer is £4 million, you then ask the directors whether they want to sell at the best price available. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. You wouldn't however, tell them they had to take £4 million because they had already voted to sell. I respect democracy too. That means asking the people whether they want to leave when the options are known, just like it means asking the directors whether they want to sell when the selling price is known.
I know a lot of lads who voted leave... and would do it again in a hearbeat. Not met one guy face to face who.. with all the facts wouldn’t make the same choice. There is this strange myth pedalled by a small number of ‘ still hurting’ remained a that most who voted for Brexit wouldn’t now. Equally I know remainers who would now vote leave as they don’t believe the scare stories anymore. The bottom line is our democratic process worked... and the majority in this country voted to leave. As Groot says, the only thing up for discussion should be what type of brexit.
A majority voted democratically for an ill defined concept. They are scared spitless that there should be any prospect that the public be given any chance at a democratic vote when the content of that concept becomes known.
Remainers should shut up - get behind this once great country and we will do exceptionally well. Remainers should stop thinking this is anti Europe! It isn't, it is anti EU. If immigration isn't such an issue then why not have free movement across the globe? Yes there will be a dip akin to recession buyt anyone studying economics even at A Level level knows that we follow a boom bust cycle and we are due one anyway. Doubt it will be worse than the feckin' bankers. I don't trust one single politician or political party and would if I had the money start my own party that actually represented the people of this country without lining our own pockets. So if I don't trust the elected politican that can be removed in 4 or 5 years time why the hell would I want an unelected member of a different country stating what this country can or can't do? I am truly appalled by the actions of certain remainers who treat those who voted to leave as dullards. Yes there are a few million plums who voted to leave as they are bigoted, racist and naive but then the same amount of people who voted to remain are the same but get plenty of money out of the EU. Oh........ wait....... sorry.................. what about all those laws the EU created? Hmmmmm...... society progressed (usually with the UK at the forefront of it) so these laws would be a natural occurence amongst progressive countries and not some EU revelation.
There is only one twat in the EU parliament. He has the audacity to run down the EU but will accept a 6 figure sum when offered.......This Brexit crap can only benefit the rich as they can weather the storm when we leave and those morons who voted to leave will be pig sick.....I hope we get a very hard Brexit that will teach them a lesson and how much we will have lost....Gone will be the cheap goods. Gone will be the cheap holidays. Gone will be free travel through Europe, And i hope nobody has a criminal record as you wont get a visa.......I hope nobody has already booked their holidays for after March as they will be in for a nasty shock...... What idiots and for what?
