I think that you are misreading my motives Frenchie. It is far more comfortable to believe that this comes from Putin and from Russia. The alternative ie. that this type of poison is somehow out there on the market somewhere is horrific. If this was one of the Novichuk nerve agents then it was first produced in the USSR. in the 70s and 80s - in a state which subsequently disintegrated. The 'security' of the 90s in Russia was very lax - as is evidenced by the amount of red army weapons which got onto the black market. Many of their chemical establishments were situated in remote areas, in non Russian Soviet states eg. Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and the Ukraine and the Russians had problems accessing these after the breakup. They have admitted that theft occurred - the only reported case of the active use of a Novichuk agent within Russia was said to have been with stolen material. We also do not know if the USSR traded in this stuff ie. supplied their allies with it. All of this was at a time in which the country had degenerated into the rise of criminal, mafia like, structures - often manned by ex military personnel. The chances of this having got onto a much larger market are dangerously high. In addition, every spy would have had the personal use of 'suicide' material for emergency. It should be noted also that the Novichuk agents were binary products - produced from chemicals which are relatively harmless until put together. In other words you can take the ingredients through customs safely - all that is then needed is the exact recipe, and a chemical laboratory. I have read that weaponizing it safely is a far harder process. If this was ordered by Putin, then it is the most stupid thing he has ever done - and I do not think he is stupid. Because the results were so predictable ie. an announcement to the World that they still have stockpiles of banned chemical weapons, diplomatic sanctions and a possible World Cup boycott - all of this for an ex spy who had been in a Russian prison for 8 years and who had been, presumably, debriefed there before being released as part of a spy exchange ? It makes no sense. It also does not make sense for rogue Russian elements to have carried this out using the means which were used - which were nearly as dangerous for the carrier as for the victim. We have seen pictures of our chemical experts dressed like spacemen when going near this stuff - but was the carrier of it, who mixed it and weaponized it, dressed like this ? He would have looked very conspicuous in Salisbury if he had been. If not then the murderer may already be dead. The fact that the ex spy and his daughter are not dead, that many others have been treated in hospital and survived, that traces of this stuff were found in 4 different places - leads to the conclusion either of a bungled attempt, or that the material used no longer had its original potency. To summarize a text which is already too long - if it was Putin then it was a bungled attempt with predictable consequences which are not in his interests. If it was from a source wanting to disrupt Russo-Western relations then it has achieved its purpose - take your pick.
From what I have read, and what little actual news there is is all we have to go on, the agent used was similar to, not certain to be the exact same composition. Reports today suggest that the two in hospital have very small chances of recovery. Those who may have come into contact with it probably didn't have the same direct exposure to it. Put something like that into the heating system of a car from a sealed container would possibly have the devastating effect we have seen, without having the same effect on the person who put it there. Pure speculation I know, but that is all there is to go with at present. In the same way we can speculate on the intelligence that countries had prior to the attack. There are many different agreements in place around the world where countries are sharing the information they gather. Are we to say that no country suspected that something was afoot until the event? The speed at which Russians were expelled suggests that there could have been some knowledge. The likelihood has to be that the exact plan of this sort would not have been known seeing as it only involved two people, but with it being so low on the radar it is quite possible that Putin or someone in his security forces thought they would get away with it. I don't think that exactly what is was or where it came from says that it must have come from Russia, similar things have been seen in Syria, but I do think that when Putin says that spies who are disloyal to the country can expect to be hunted down, that does leave him exposed to people pointing at him.
If your opinion of us is that we are two-faced hypocrites then why do you waste your time posting on here ? - there must be so many other things you could spend your time with. Before coming out with some of the rubbish you come out with you should consider that people of Jewish origins have been vastly overrepresented in the history of Socialism - Marx, Rosa Luxembourg, Karl Liebnecht, you could go on and on. What has to be realized is that criticism of the actions of Israel is not the same thing as criticism of Jewry as a whole.
Corbyn did speak with Israelis, honestly he did. I don’t know about Unionists, but given they are tories, it’s possible they didn’t want to speak to him, I’ve no idea. But he definitely spoke with Israelis. His position is one of jaw-jaw not war-war, following that great British tradition. I’m sorry you feel that way about the board, I missed that. Very recently we have had a >18000 poster who has left the boards as a result of feeling hounded out. Alarming to me is how little mention of that there has been. As for a ‘clique’, I PMed somebody who is supposedly part of it about this, with whom I differ politically very much, but then, I don’t know if I’m considered part of it - I have been accused of that, which is nonsense. I think probably most similarly to cologne, but I don’t think we see eye to eye on the finer detail. Ultimately, we are all Watford fans, and hopefully what we share is greater than that which divides.
One thing I would say - for months lots of people, including the OP, have aid this Government doesn't have the intelligence to tie it's own shoelaces. Apparently it's now capable of poisoning two people and pinning it on Putin so the world turns against him. Make your minds up guys....
Sounds a fair point. But I wasn’t saying it was MI6, that wasn’t what I was getting at. When I mentioned MI6’s past, that was in reference to the play-acted indignation and the assumption that it would be wrong for us to not be allowed to question Russians in Russia, which of course we would not allow if the boot was on the other foot. If I were to guess where blame lies, I would think it was one of the hundreds from the East that Skripal betrayed, narrowing things down to perhaps hundreds (?) of potentials, not just one, because that’s politically expedient.
There is a fine line between anti-Semitism and anti-Israeli Govt.... and time and time again i have seen Israelis and the Israeli Govt and pro-Israel media... conflate the two. I have a good friend in the US whose wife is Jewish and he really struggles to hear criticism of Israel as not being anti-Semitic. The people of Palestine have had a very bad deal indeed and most major powers stand by because of the deal between Saudi the US/GB and the Israeli regime
Worth saying that I have different views to Frenchie and Cologne and others on these boards.... but because we can discuss respectfully without resorting to abuse we can all get on...it is more online friendship than any sort of clique... and that is what is needed. Incidentally I would also take the pacifist view........
But was the abuse from everyone? I think not... And if you have read wear yellows first post in this thread it was all the things he himself claims to have suffered from. The way to stop a pattern of conflict is to offer another way of relating. Attack is not necessarily the best form of defense. I am not saying you are doing this Lenny. I believe even in the midst of real conflict you have acted with integrity. On the issue of moderation.. It is really hard.. With out being accused of policing etc etc I have consistently said we should have a code of conduct. But as a forum 'we' struggle to agree [emoji106] Sent from my G3121 using Tapatalk
Correct - the abuse to me was from only two or three. Thank you for your final sentence. Still it is not worth debating the rights and wrongs. We have been there too many times. Hence I will not participate on controversial threads any more and just suggest w_y does the same - as I said he is wasting his breath in complaining. I just see in his posts the frustration I feel. Nothing will change.
Sure... It is a big call trying to achieve under standing with a diverse bunch on the anonymity of social media.... And the opportunity for misunderstanding is massive I just think we should think very hard about the impact of what we post.... And by that I mean every one of us Sent from my G3121 using Tapatalk
I enjoy debating with people who listen and whose responses show they understand and take note of what I'm saying. They don't have to agree, I like to be confronted by fresh ideas, but if they only relentlessly pursue their own agenda without considering other possibilities there's no pleasure to be had in it.
Can we cut the personal abuse please from wherever it is coming from. It would be far better to be glad that a life maybe saved, rather than try to keep our own likes and dislikes being brought to the fore.
yes please guys...... not good... Frenchie is there not a way you can just pull abusive posts... I know it is controversial...
Yes I can pull posts, and have done so a few times. When it has happened it has been after behind the scenes conversation with the poster. It is easy to fire off something designed to inflame, yet maybe some people will look at their comments later and wonder if it was the best thing to have said. Respect for others is all that is required. You can say you disagree and why. To say that I am right so therefore you are wrong is not debate.
I have been through the thread and have removed a number of posts where people have been making comments about individuals or groups that are designed to stir things up rather than discuss the subject matter. If anyone feels aggrieved you can let me know by PM.
Thank you Frenchie... let us all abide by this....... and keeping with the season I happy for you to play god on this .............
