Inverted Wingers

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PowerSpurs said:
I'm not programmed to defend AVB but I would say that he is the first manager since Bill Nicholson who I actually think gives us an edge over most of the rest of the league by attention to detail. He is also our most successful manager ever based on early results. His detractors seem to assume that if we did some things differently then that would improve us and everything else would stay the same. My view is that he has us set up to play solidly and goals will come later. If he changes anything now we could easily go back to our normal defensive record, drop points that way and slip down the table.
This whole thread is a classic example of of some fans misunderstanding what AVB is trying to do. You can't play AVB's tactics with traditional wingers for the reasons I posted above. If you tried to you would lose the ball more often, and the opponents could counter-attack more easily because there would be more space. The whole system depends on the wingers being narrow and the width coming from over-lapping fullbacks. What is going a bit wrong currently is that the winger on the side without the ball is staying too wide and not getting close enough to Soldado but that should be a tweak.

But I've only got just over a 50% chance of being right about any of this.....
Click to expand...

Successful based on what, points or actual achievements? Avb has done nothing to even warrant being mentioned alongside truly great managers.

If you want to talk about success, Redknapp has more of a claim as he took us past the current goal Avb has been set, but of course a records point total is more of a succes inspired mainly by Bales attacking talent.

When we look at AVB's setup and the full backs aren't offering width, if Avb is still playing a narrow game then that shows he is making an obvious error, a point you can't deny as you effectively admitted Avb is one dimensional in his tactics.

Personally I'm not a fan of Lennon on the left and would rather it's him or Townsend but who is playing two wingers in the current system? Avb. So why is he playing Lennon on the left if it doesn't work? Is that an obvious error? Yes.

The goals aren't all of a sudden going to flow each week when the team gels, all that will happen is like last year with Bale the team will need someone to carry them in an attacking sense and be the stand out performer.

Avb is a good defensive coach but so far he has shown a lack of attacking ideas to bring the best out of the team in the final 3rd. You believe that will change? Good on you but as said it's not a universal view and AVB has been providing us with crap uninspiring football since he arrived.
 
PowerSpurs said:
I'm not programmed to defend AVB but I would say that he is the first manager since Bill Nicholson who I actually think gives us an edge over most of the rest of the league by attention to detail. He is also our most successful manager ever based on early results. His detractors seem to assume that if we did some things differently then that would improve us and everything else would stay the same. My view is that he has us set up to play solidly and goals will come later. If he changes anything now we could easily go back to our normal defensive record, drop points that way and slip down the table.
This whole thread is a classic example of of some fans misunderstanding what AVB is trying to do. You can't play AVB's tactics with traditional wingers for the reasons I posted above. If you tried to you would lose the ball more often, and the opponents could counter-attack more easily because there would be more space. The whole system depends on the wingers being narrow and the width coming from over-lapping fullbacks. What is going a bit wrong currently is that the winger on the side without the ball is staying too wide and not getting close enough to Soldado but that should be a tweak.

But I've only got just over a 50% chance of being right about any of this.....
Click to expand...

"But that should be a tweak"

For a manager who you worryingly think is our "most successful" it is taking him a bloody long time to make this "tweak".
 
"This whole thread is a classic example of of some fans misunderstanding what AVB is trying to do."

I understand. But IMHO things are currently not working.
By the time all the Europa group games are played (and interleaved PL games) , I will definitely know
whether tis working or not.
 
The RDBD said:
"This whole thread is a classic example of of some fans misunderstanding what AVB is trying to do."

I understand. But IMHO things are currently not working.
By the time all the Europa group games are played (and interleaved PL games) , I will definitely know
whether tis working or not.
Click to expand...

We understand what AVB is trying to achieve yet just because we understand doesn't mean we blindly agree, which is powers issue as he posts as if fans don't understand on the basis they see obvious flaws in his setup.
 
Well, one definition of insanity is to repeatedly do the same thing and expect
different results each time.
 
Well, one definition of insanity is to repeatedly do the same thing and expect
different results each time.
 
As demonstrated by my repeated attempts to post in the presence of the not606 server DBs
going wibble.
 
A buildup which is always slow is a bigger problem, to me, than inverted wingers, and is something I can only hope AVB is willing to change. There are many times when you want a slow buildup. It aids possession, etc. But getting the ball down the field and shooting ASAP obviously is one of the most effective ways to score. There aren't defenders there to block or to sweep up loose balls. If we did it more often, we'd be trading some possession for some goals, a good trade for us as we stand.
 
I'm against inverted wingers per se regardless of who they are playing for.

Spurs with Bale left and Lennon right are a prime example of the effectiveness of playing wingers as wingers, stretching the play and providing the service the forwards need.
 
Boss said:
Successful based on what, points or actual achievements? Avb has done nothing to even warrant being mentioned alongside truly great managers.


Personally I'm not a fan of Lennon on the left and would rather it's him or Townsend but who is playing two wingers in the current system? Avb. So why is he playing Lennon on the left if it doesn't work? Is that an obvious error? Yes.
Click to expand...

Points - very hard to keep up the standard while doing a wholesale squad change.

I agree that it doesn't look right to play Lennon on the right, but half this board think he's one of our best players and should be in the team as soon as he is fit. I don't agree with that either but the error is hardly 'obvious'. The solution of playing Townsend on the left and Lennon on the right isn't obvious either as that completely changes the system that has brought us our good start and amazing run of clean sheets.

Out of interest - what team and tactics would you have chosen against Everton - I can then point out a number of 'obvious' problems with it.
 
littleDinosaurLuke said:
I'm against inverted wingers per se regardless of who they are playing for.

Spurs with Bale left and Lennon right are a prime example of the effectiveness of playing wingers as wingers, stretching the play and providing the service the forwards need.
Click to expand...

Except that the less Bale was forced to be on the left, the better he did.
 
redwhiteandermblue said:
A buildup which is always slow is a bigger problem, to me, than inverted wingers, and is something I can only hope AVB is willing to change. There are many times when you want a slow buildup. It aids possession, etc. But getting the ball down the field and shooting ASAP obviously is one of the most effective ways to score. There aren't defenders there to block or to sweep up loose balls. If we did it more often, we'd be trading some possession for some goals, a good trade for us as we stand.
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That's right, but I think the ability to play fast good passes comes with confidence and understanding, and I think this is a matter of time not choice. That is what I mean when i use the term 'gel'.
 
PowerSpurs said:
Points - very hard to keep up the standard while doing a wholesale squad change.

I agree that it doesn't look right to play Lennon on the right, but half this board think he's one of our best players and should be in the team as soon as he is fit. I don't agree with that either but the error is hardly 'obvious'. The solution of playing Townsend on the left and Lennon on the right isn't obvious either as that completely changes the system that has brought us our good start and amazing run of clean sheets.

Out of interest - what team and tactics would you have chosen against Everton - I can then point out a number of 'obvious' problems with it.
Click to expand...

You mean on the left? thats an obvious mistake you made Power (kidding buddy)! but for me its either Andros or Lennon on the right wing if Avb is going to continue with this narrow set-up as when Lennon cuts inside, he may not have the shooting power of Andros, but his quick change of direction creates space and drags defenders out of position.

As for my team and tactics, of course no matter what I post there would be obvious problems, every system has weak points, that isn't even in question, so essentially we both agree that AVbs tactics has obvious problems? however certain issues such as the narrow play causing congesting and lack of support to the striker aren't natural problems of the system as like you mentioned, playing narrow is meant to be one of the systems strong points? you agree? well if there is a problem with one of the system's obvious strong points then surely you can agree that Avb must take responsibility for this?
 
I guess what I'm really saying is that AVB's system is a bit like Capitalism. Terrible but still better than any other system!

I just get a bit fed up with everyone slagging the guy off prematurely
 
PowerSpurs said:
I guess what I'm really saying is that AVB's system is a bit like Capitalism. Terrible but still better than any other system!

I just get a bit fed up with everyone slagging the guy off prematurely
Click to expand...

Well I understand that it comes across that way, yet to be fair I do praise AVB for his defensive set-up and coaching as hes clearly great at this and on paper I'm sure his system overall makes sense to him and his team.

All some of us are asking, is for Avb to relax a tad, bring in more creativity in terms of movement and realise the congested play isn't helping our attacking players work as a unit.
 
Boss said:
I hear he has been caught sneaking off early from meetings to read Redknapps biography.
Click to expand...

Redknapp played Townsend on the right last year, so not sure what differences he would bring to our attacking lineup. Our team is made for an on form Lamela on the right, shame he's not ready to take the role. The wingers need craft and guile. Townsend and Lennon are speed merchants, who won't have the skills for the system we are playing. Eriksen and Holtby should be playing at the moment.
 
SpursDisciple said:
Redknapp played Townsend on the right last year, so not sure what differences he would bring to our attacking lineup. Our team is made for an on form Lamela on the right, shame he's not ready to take the role. The wingers need craft and guile. Townsend and Lennon are speed merchants, who won't have the skills for the system we are playing. Eriksen and Holtby should be playing at the moment.
Click to expand...

It was a tounge in cheek comment.
 
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