Off Topic International Break Thread
- Thread starter PleaseNotPoll
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We have loads of really good players who want to play as a 10 or on the right. The LW names are all less flashy (Gordon) or in bad form so didn’t make the squad. Doesn’t help too that it’s not like we have an overlapping left sided player at LB without Shaw fit.
I think he needs to start Gordon on the left next game and drop Trent out of the midfield for Gallagher or Wharton, who will offer more game management in that area of the pitch.
Grealish would have been my choice for LW, that’s Southgate’s biggest mistake imo. I don’t particularly rate Gordon, think he’s quite basic although his directness could be useful I guess.
Foden or Bellingham as the attacking midfielder. Like Sven did, he’s too scared to not start a big big name and trying to force them both in which doesn’t get the best out of Foden.
I think sometimes you need a 'basic' player who does the simple things. We offered nothing from the left and Foden was just in the way of Bellingham. Having Gordon tearing down the left would be a release for so many of our forwards. As usual in a Southgate team Kane has very little to live off. We wasted his talents and we wasted Foden's. Both wings were compromised IMO and as a result we end up with a Hearse instead of the needed Sports Car.
It's not unusual for teams in tournaments to start slowly and look ordinary and progress as the games unfold. I can remember West Germany, Argentina, Portugal and Italy all looking very staid and winning tournaments. Hopefully we can find the 'English' way which was very much as Germany played against Scotland. When English club teams really dominated Europe in the 70's they did it by playing high speed agressive football. Maybe we don't have the manager to do that but I am still hoping that he will surprise us. He was bold in his squad selection he just needs to loosen his and the teams shackles on the pitch.
Leopards and spots etc!
I so desperately want to see England do well but as someone said earlier, it has last 16 elimination written all over it if they continue to play like this.....
More Armadillo then Leopard I thinkLeopards and spots etc!
I so desperately want to see England do well but as someone said earlier, it has last 16 elimination written all over it if they continue to play like this.....
It's safe to say that England's achievements over the past few tournaments have been despite the manager, not because of him.
I agree. The players speak well of him but they would wouldn't they. He's probably a decent man but that isn't what you need to lead people into battle. I am hoping that he has learnt something in his time as England manager but is he surrounded by sycophants? The FA have a history of picking the diplomat over the warrior. No to Clough, no to Redknapp, sacked Venables and avoided Allison.
I think that’s quite harsh.
If you look at where England were before him and where they are now, he’s improved them massively and will leave (assuming he goes after this tournament) the national side in a very healthy position.
There’s no guarantee his replacement (whoever it may be) will be an improvement on him either.
In the aftermath of another turgid England performance I would like to single out one person from last nights game who was top drawer - Daniele Orsato (the ref) who had a great game.
The refs in general have been good. For all the money the PL has, with its multitude of foreign talent, why not foreign refs as well?
That’s not really accurate though because he’s not responsible for producing or even developing the talent, so where England were before and are now is almost nothing to do with him. He’s just got the gig at an extremely fortunate time where the country’s producing great talents.
The way I look at Southgate would be the equivalent of if you gave Alan Pardew the Man City job. Chances are he’d finish top four but he’d almost certainly not win the league. So would that be a good job on his part? If your answer’s “no”, then that’s how I view Southgate with England.
England were where they were before him because of a combination of factors. There was a post-Sven and the last 'golden generation' lull, and the succession of Mclaren, Cappello, Hodgson and Allardyce to apparently oversee the transition into the next golden generation was as bad as it looks on paper.
With the current crop coming through and the FA finally engaging their brains before making decisions, it was almost harder for Southgate to fail than succeed.
He has certainly delivered some amazing moments but with few exceptions the concern remains that England are typical flat track bullies who come undone as soon as they are faced with quality opposition. We did well in the group stages in 2020 against tough albeit not amazing opposition and then our route to the final was extremely fortunate. An abysmal Germany side followed by Ukraine and Denmark is hardly anything to write home about. Italy had to face Belgium and Spain to get there. Same story in Qatar. Piss easy group, Senegal in RO16 and the wheels come off against France.
Put Carlo Ancelloti in charge of this group of players and I think we'd have a few trophies by now.
A National manager is responsible for 3 major things. 1. Picking the squad. Most of us could do this because it's usually fairly obvious who the best 26 players are. Who to leave out is the 'difficult' decision and Southgate tbf, was brave this time and I would applaude him for that. 2. Picking the team. This is more difficult and there is probably less consensus. We'd probably all pick Bellingham but would we pick Foden as well? Would we have 2 defensive midfielders? I think Southgate errs on the defensive side. Does that make sense when our strength is in attack? 3. Choosing the strategy. IMO Southgate has failed in that area. We should have beaten France, we should have beaten Italy and we should have beaten Croatia. I could change should to could but in each case we were timid and not ascertive.
What has improved is the quality of the players and that's not down to Southgate. What has not improved is the quality of England performances and that is down to him.
What has improved is the quality of the players and that's not down to Southgate. What has not improved is the quality of England performances and that is down to him.
Results are where managers are ultimately judged
Southgate’s record is up there with the best when it comes to England, could be wrong but I think it’s better than Sir Bobby and Terry Venables.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying he’s as good a manager as them but to say he’s holding England back is very harsh.
I also don’t think he’s as defensive as people make out. Gary Neville is right about the holding midfielder situation, playing Rice there alone doesn’t work, you need a defensive 2 to sit behind the attacking 3, it’s why Rice looked better for England when he had Kalvin Phillips alongside him, if anything Southgate is trying to be too adventurous in midfield.
Southgate’s record is up there with the best when it comes to England, could be wrong but I think it’s better than Sir Bobby and Terry Venables.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying he’s as good a manager as them but to say he’s holding England back is very harsh.
I also don’t think he’s as defensive as people make out. Gary Neville is right about the holding midfielder situation, playing Rice there alone doesn’t work, you need a defensive 2 to sit behind the attacking 3, it’s why Rice looked better for England when he had Kalvin Phillips alongside him, if anything Southgate is trying to be too adventurous in midfield.
I give it a week before Cesc Fabregas has a thousand-yard stare after having his genuine insights drowned out by Rio Ferdinand's clueless droning
A few other thoughts.
Bellingham as a 10 is a lot like Alli as a 10. You’re playing him for the additional goal threat first rather than for his creativity, though he does both. In many ways he’s ideal to play with Kane because he’ll go beyond him happily and crash the box regardless of whether Kane drops off or not. But to make it work for the team you have to allow Kane to drop sometimes.
You also need better passing midfielders behind if Bellingham is going to play 10. Trent can put a ball on a sixpence from 40 yards but this England team don’t really play to the strengths of those big cross field switches. Maybe with a pacier, more direct winger we would. But he’s not what we’re missing because you already have several players who can do that in the squad. I don’t think he belongs in that midfield.
Foden on the left just isn’t it for me. You can probably get away with it when you have a proper LB but if it’s going to be Trippier for a few more games while Shaw gets fit, then you need Eze or Gordon to play at LW to open up the pitch and avoid contesting the middle.
And finally I think Rice is being misused a bit. He’s not really a sitting 6, which is what we need. He’s a physically dominant ball carrier who will be a serious weapon against more fluid teams later in the tournament but adds a lot in any situation. But he needs a controller alongside him. Trent isn’t it so it has to be one of the kids or Gallagher.
Thing is that England have so many good players these days that they’ll beat a lot of teams just on moments even if the selection and setup isn’t optimal. And that’s fine. But I think if we want to more comfortably navigate the group stages and set ourselves up for a deeper run in the tournament then there’s a few things that need to change.
Bellingham as a 10 is a lot like Alli as a 10. You’re playing him for the additional goal threat first rather than for his creativity, though he does both. In many ways he’s ideal to play with Kane because he’ll go beyond him happily and crash the box regardless of whether Kane drops off or not. But to make it work for the team you have to allow Kane to drop sometimes.
You also need better passing midfielders behind if Bellingham is going to play 10. Trent can put a ball on a sixpence from 40 yards but this England team don’t really play to the strengths of those big cross field switches. Maybe with a pacier, more direct winger we would. But he’s not what we’re missing because you already have several players who can do that in the squad. I don’t think he belongs in that midfield.
Foden on the left just isn’t it for me. You can probably get away with it when you have a proper LB but if it’s going to be Trippier for a few more games while Shaw gets fit, then you need Eze or Gordon to play at LW to open up the pitch and avoid contesting the middle.
And finally I think Rice is being misused a bit. He’s not really a sitting 6, which is what we need. He’s a physically dominant ball carrier who will be a serious weapon against more fluid teams later in the tournament but adds a lot in any situation. But he needs a controller alongside him. Trent isn’t it so it has to be one of the kids or Gallagher.
Thing is that England have so many good players these days that they’ll beat a lot of teams just on moments even if the selection and setup isn’t optimal. And that’s fine. But I think if we want to more comfortably navigate the group stages and set ourselves up for a deeper run in the tournament then there’s a few things that need to change.
I think Southgate recognises the need to change. The question is,can he beat his defensive instincts to deliver it. I think he is trying.
And that is the goal of the tournament so far!
What a strike.
What a strike.