****ing Scumbags

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I think Suarez probably isn't a racist. Evra on the other hand probably is. From the scrap of information we have on the incident, it seems Evra said to Suarez something about him being a "South American" and Suarez replied with something about him being a black. At which point Evra accuses him of being a racist.

Suarez probably wasn't expecting Evra to go all PC on him. Evra isn't shy about playing the race card. He has prior on this. My take is that Suarez has been very silly and was unaware of the local situation. He probably considers himself of mixed blood and therefore exempt.

Whilst racism is obviously not something that anyone should condone. It is difficult to understand how there would be no issue if Suarez had said something offensive about Evra's mother instead.

My feeling on racism is that it is most serious when there is discrimination to go along with it. If two guys are trading insults, it seems odd that if person A says that person B's mother fornicated with a goat and person B replies with, for example, "I think you are a foul-mouthed black guy". Person B has committed a crime. It is even more difficult to figure out, when you realise that if there are 9 black guys saying it and one white guy, then only the white guy has committed the crime.

All very tricky. To my mind, none of this is helping kick racism out of the game. When it gets down to a he said this and so he said that, it just becomes childish. All this is showing that Blatter was far smarter that the FA, when he indicated that FIFA were not going to get involved in player spats on the field of play, in the heat of battle, with accusations of racism.
 
Jayramfootball said:
I think the people on Twitter should who have posted their bile for all to see should be very worried.
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As i posted earlier,it would appear various police forces around the country have been informed about certain posts on Twitter.
One thing that does make me laugh about this whole sordid episode is how certain people are taking the moral highground.Paul McGrath was on Talksport yesterday talking about Liverpool wearing the Suarez tee shirts.He said that if he'd have been a Liverpool player he would have thrown the tee shirt onto the ground in disgust.This is the same McGrath who tried to defend Ron Atkinson when Atkinson called Marcelle Desailly <sic> a ******.
 
Jayramfootball said:
<applause> I am sick of people going on about how these words are used without insult in some contexts. It's a smoke screen to hide a racist act.
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"Because it was used on a football pitch, that makes him a racist" is the sum total of that argument. It's rubbish, mostly borne out of people wanting to believe what they want to believe. If you're in an argument, that doesn't suddenly make whatever you say the sum of your beliefs and attitudes towards all people. It's like if someone in Western culture went over to some other country and called someone a ****** during a confrontation. They might get labelled as a disgusting hater of people with mental disabilities. When that might not be the truth; it's just that that particular insult is socially acceptable in Western culture outside of the context of hateful language.

All the Liverpool players have come out in support of him quite clearly because they want to say "Well, look, we know the guy outside of that context, and we're pretty confident he ain't a racist just because he used that word". And while none of us are in any position to judge, I'm more inclined to think they have a decent reason for believing that over Jayram's beliefs, which mostly come from being an internet blowhard.

Doesn't make it ok, of course. Doesn't make him a racist either, though.
 
gunnerman said:
as bad as this is, why are people acting surprised? it's like some people were just born yesterday...this is the internet and people have been saying vile stuff on the net since it's birth, did everyone think we lived in a nice lovy dovy happy well behaved mannered world? stan collymore in my eyes is just being a baby about this to bring so much public attention to a few trolls. and look at how his own fans have reacted, and their the supposed good guys eh?
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I think someone posting a comment like "Go and hang yourself like Gary Speed you ******" is slightly more than trolling and i for one hope the whole weight of the law is bought to bear on the racist scum who posted it
 
Jayramfootball said:
Actually that wasn't even a component of my argument, let alone the sum total.
What I said was, the contextual situations where those words are used are often referred to as some sort of justification. Its a cop out, which you seem intent on using.

The ****** analogy is a poor one - because the language itself has nothing to do with context.

If i was to go to any country and get into a heated argument with someone, then call them a ******, they would take offence.
If I was with a friend of 20 years regardless of where he was from, and he did somethng silly and I called him a ******, he would laugh.

Thats context.

If you really believe Suarez was using the term he used in a context that was innocent, and you are trying to get others to believe it, then you should be ashamed of yourself. At best Saurez was ignorant, and ignorance is not an excuse for racism.
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Suarez's excuse would appear to be that the term "negrito" is a term of endearment in some Latin countries
 
Jayramfootball said:
Actually that wasn't even a component of my argument, let alone the sum total.
What I said was, the contextual situations where those words are used are often referred to as some sort of justification. Its a cop out, which you seem intent on using.
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I assumed that you weren't trying to say that cultural context has no bearing on the issue. I didn't think you'd suggest something that ignorant.

You seem to think that the idea of context is limited to "whether you're having a laugh with a mate or whether you're having an argument with a stranger". Which I was spot on in summing up when I said your argument was "It took place on a football field, therefore it is racist". I'm saying that there may be cultural contexts, which was what the ****** analogy was about. Whether you're mates with the person you're insulting or not doesn't matter when we're talking about cultural context.

Your logic is that because it was an argument between strangers, it means using a word that might not be racist in his culture but is in ours makes the intent behind the insult automatically indicative of him hating black people. Idiocy. I won't defend people who use racist language, but that's just an utterly stupid argument to be trying to make, and indicative more of the fact that you just like to hate people more than anything else. Jayram loves his opinions on internet forums. :rolleyes:
 
Wow. I'm a Liverpool fan but this is absolutely outrageous... I'm disgusted, ofc I'm going to stick up for Suarez, atleast until I've seen some concrete evidence but I'd never go about it the way they have. It's appalling if I'm quite honest!
 
Jayramfootball said:
I think you like to translate whetever you hear or read into something that works for you. A common sign of limited intelligence.

You have not given any real example of the cultural contexts you are talking about, other than a made up one on the use of the word ******. Please try and explain what you are talking about, as opposed to using the cop out of 'cultural context'.

My example - note the word example as opposed to a full description - is clear and obvious.

To give you another example:

If I were to walk up to gang of African Americans in New York that I didn't know, and shout out 'Hey my ******s' - let's just say I wouldn't be too popular, and it would in fact be a racist act.

Again, if I had known those guys all my life and that is how we greeted each other, it would be fine.

How well you know someone and how your relationship has developed over the years is a vital part of what context means when it comes to racism.

In terms of different countries and cultures, well if a woman walks down the street in a bikini in the middle of Dubai, she is being disrespectful. The fact she didn't know it was wrong is no excuse at all. She is still being disrespectful to the culture in that part of the world. As I said, ignorance is no excuse.

I don't think I have ever said that using a racist term automatically means a person hates that race. They are words you have used.

I really don't know what you are trying to say. Why are you defending what Suarez did?
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Jayram you're the first to moan about peope abusing you.The lad hasn't insulted you so there is no need for you to insult him <ok>
 
This thread was started because of the abuse posted to Stan Collymore.It is now descending into a thread about what Suarez said or didn't say.Please lets not let it descend into a slanging match about our personal views on Suarez <ok>
 
You can't blame the club or fans as a whole for these idiots, who represent a small portion of our worldwide support.

It's mind-numbing to read, but does not represent 'typical LFC fans' or anything like that.
 
pleasenotpoll said:
the bit in their statement where they say nobody else heard the alleged conversation implies dishonesty, to me.
He's made a claim which they don't even seem to be disputing, so why mention the fact that nobody else heard what was said?
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have to correct you there - evra claimed suarez said it ten times - suarez said that he said it once - there is a huge difference between making a mistake once and making it ten times - what they are saying is no-one else heard him say it ten times yet they believed evras version
 
Aurelio's Favourite Doctor said:
You can't blame the club or fans as a whole for these idiots, who represent a small portion of our worldwide support.

It's mind-numbing to read, but does not represent 'typical LFC fans' or anything like that.
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<ok> Most of the Liverpool fans I've met and talked with on here are a decent bunch. Every teams fan's have a few bad apples, but to label Liverpool fans '****ing Scumbags' is just going way OTT.
 
antidistinctlyminty (ADM) said:
have to correct you there - evra claimed suarez said it ten times - suarez said that he said it once - there is a huge difference between making a mistake once and making it ten times - what they are saying is no-one else heard him say it ten times yet they believed evras version
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We don't know whose version they believed, as they haven't given out any details, yet.
Suarez may have been banned for the one use that he admitted to or they may have decided that he was lying.
If he didn't think that it was offensive, then why did he limit himself to only using the phrase/word once?
 
PleaseNotPoll said:
We don't know whose version they believed, as they haven't given out any details, yet.
Suarez may have been banned for the one use that he admitted to or they may have decided that he was lying.
If he didn't think that it was offensive, then why did he limit himself to only using the phrase/word once?
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who said he limited himself to saying it once - maybe he just happened to say it once
 
I have to say that if everybody followed Murray's rule of contextual cultural 'racism' then people would be killing each other daily. In Murray's world you can call a spanish guy a spik because in my insular little world this is a term of endearment (which it isn't) but if you pretend it is then hey... it's all good in the hood. Grow up Murray!
 
Jayramfootball said:
If I were to walk up to gang of African Americans in New York that I didn't know, and shout out 'Hey my ******s' - let's just say I wouldn't be too popular, and it would in fact be a racist act.
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You'll find that "******s" means the same thing here as it does in America. That's the same cultural context. :rolleyes:

In terms of different countries and cultures, well if a woman walks down the street in a bikini in the middle of Dubai, she is being disrespectful. The fact she didn't know it was wrong is no excuse at all. She is still being disrespectful to the culture in that part of the world. As I said, ignorance is no excuse.
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That's the part which is making you look ridiculous. You're saying he's a racist regardless of whether he was ignorant of what the word he used means in our culture. How could he be racist if he didn't even know that the act he was committing is considered racist?

This is where cultural context is relevent. You're arguing that situational context within our own culture is all that matters (i.e. "whether they're friends or strangers"), and that it doesn't matter if he knew or not what the word means to us, he's just automatically a disgusting racist. I kind of hold the belief that intent is a rather important part of whether someone's a racist or not.

I really don't know what you are trying to say. Why are you defending what Suarez did?
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I'm not. I'm saying your reason for calling him a racist is silly, and just borne out of wanting to believe he is rather than any actual evidence. I prefer to have evidence of racist intent before branding everyone who suggests he might not be a racist a "f*cking scumbag" or some such.
 
Bergkampspilot said:
I have to say that if everybody followed Murray's rule of contextual cultural 'racism' then people would be killing each other daily. In Murray's world you can call a spanish guy a spik because in my insular little world this is a term of endearment (which it isn't) but if you pretend it is then hey... it's all good in the hood. Grow up Murray!
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I've never even heard of a spik before. If you told me it was a term of endearment and I used it to someone, and I was then labelled a racist for not knowing, that would be akin to what some people are saying here.

I'm not saying Suarez ain't a racist. I'm just saying people are flinging around some pretty dumb stuff because they want to believe he is rather than there being any clear evidence of intent.
 
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