Off Topic Impact of Brexit on Football

Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by Davylad, Mar 26, 2016.

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  1. Cromercanary

    Cromercanary Well-Known Member
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    <applause> Well said DH. There's no way article 50 can or should be triggered without a clear view of the longer term implications for British people of life post-Brussels. To do so without an agreed set of beliefs / principles would be the most ludicrous decision ever undertaken by any government ever.
    And to date, nobody, not one single soul has come up with an agenda (not even basic bullet points, ffs!) that needs to be adhered to / negotiated towards achieving as closely as possible.
    Until they do, there will be no progress.
     
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  2. WEIGHTY CRIMSON PLUM

    WEIGHTY CRIMSON PLUM Well-Known Member

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    First we vote leave or remain......now people want to vote on how we walk out the door and if we can still use the toilet.
     
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  3. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    When that "toilet" is the biggest set of bilateral trade agreements to ever exist, how we manage our new land-border with the EU, and the rights of 1.3 million Brits to live and work in Europe (to name a couple of issues) is it not worthy of discussion?

    And from a pro-Brexit angle, would you not rather there was debate on it, rather than wake up to find May's set in stone Brexit deal is some pathetic, watered-down agreement barely worth of the name?
     
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  4. WEIGHTY CRIMSON PLUM

    WEIGHTY CRIMSON PLUM Well-Known Member

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    No I want politicians to do the job they are paid so well to do and stop asking me to tell them what to do every five minutes.
     
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  5. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    I'm not asking for a second referendum, far from it. I think all Cromer and I (without wanting to put words into someone's mouth) are asking for is some kind of parliamentary discussion/oversight of the whole process. Other than the Lib Dems and possibly the Greens, I don't think any political party have said they'll block the Article 50 bill unconditionally, but you can understand the reluctance in giving May and friends carte blanche to agree whatever deal they want in secret.
     
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  6. carrowcanario

    carrowcanario Well-Known Member

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    Well Corbyn said labour would vote against if May didn't commit to continued membership of the single market.

    What a cluster f*ck that would be, Yeah really great idea lets discuss it in parliament and eventually work out some shoddy compromise having batted it backwards and forwards between the commons & the lords and then having aired all our dirty washing in public lets negotiate with the EU from a position of strength and get a really good deal. Really you couldn't make it up to be any more stupid if you tried.

    If, that's if, the government loses their appeal the only questions that should go before Parliament is do we vinvoke article 50 or not, no discussion, no deals, yes or no. If you think the disconnect between MP's and the people is bad now, just see how bad it'll get if they go against the will of the people. Next thing Farage, or worse, will be PM, have people learnt nothing from the last 10 years.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 12, 2016
  7. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    To first comment on the bit I've highlighted, it is impossible to conclude based on the referendum question that it is the will of the people to leave the single market. 52% voted to leave the EU, and I don't doubt that many meant that to be a complete withdrawal from all european arrangements, but a "soft brexit" (ie single market access) was discussed a lot by the Leave campaign. You can't dismiss that some Leave voters wanted that option, nor can you dismiss the 48% who voted to remain as if anything they have to say is now completely irrelevant and they should butt out of politics for the next decade. As that Farage article I posted the other day highlighted, he and many other prominent Leave figures would never have sat back and accepted a 52-48 result the other way, even if some would dismiss it as sour grapes.

    To fight a campaign to make parliament sovereign and then expect them to be bypassed so Theresa May and co can enact whatever Brexit means to them, is ironic to say the least. Particularly when she nominally campaigned for Remain, and fell into the position with no real scrutiny of her position on Brexit. Parliamentary discussions/oversight won't be easy, but I expect neither side would be happy with whatever deal she comes back with if it doesn't happen. It can happen behind closed doors for all I care, but there should be discourse from a wider range of opinions on what to negotiate for.
     
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  8. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    Separate from my own thoughts, to indulge in some political crystal-ball gazing, I think the most likely scenario is May's Article 50 bill is "uncompromised", and it'll get voted down which will lead to a general election. We'll then see effectively a single-issue campaign with May for Hard Brexit, Corbyn for Soft, Farron for neither.
     
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  9. goldeneadie

    goldeneadie Well-Known Member

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    From a legal perspective, we originally joined the "common market" by way of an act Parliament. In order to leave it must take the same rout to do so. The referendum is only to be seem as an indicator of the wishes of the electorate.
     
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  10. Cromercanary

    Cromercanary Well-Known Member
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    Indeed <ok>
    I fail to see what part of this the 'leave' voters and the Daily Fail have such trouble grasping??
     
    #890

  11. KIO

    KIO Well-Known Member

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    PARLIAMENT voted 6-1 to allow the BRITISH PEOPLE to decide whether to leave or not. It's already been through Parliament ergo we leave
     
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  12. carrowcanario

    carrowcanario Well-Known Member

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    I thought the point was for Britain to take control of it's own destiny, So yes this includes British Courts, Parliament being sovereign, but surely if you really believe in the British people being in control of their own destiny, then the will of the British people expressed through a referendum shouldn't be overridden. But my main concern is perhaps more than just Brexit. If the lawyers and politicians manage to undermine Brexit, I think the disconnect between the electorate and the establishment will get much wider, which in my mind will lead to one of 2 things 1) Even less people will vote to so the destination of our country will be left in the hands of pensioners & those special university educated class of people or 2) Non establishment parties will become much stronger and eventually take power, like Trump has in America. To me neither is particularly desirable and I think in the long term perhaps the way the establishment deals with the result, may end up to be much more important than the result itself.
     
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  13. carrowcanario

    carrowcanario Well-Known Member

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    I really don't profess to know the detailed legal arguements, but I think I'm right in saying laws in this country are not just made through acts parliament. I think by far the majority of people in this country would be more than happy to be a member of the common market we joined. But we aren't leaving the common market, that no longer exists, we're leaving the EU and to do that as I understand it EU law comes into play. If EU law says that article 50 can be evoke by the PM (without the need to go to parliament) then that's what happens once we leave the EU then we can play by our own rules. Doesn't really matter what our court says, because I think even when our supreme court takes a decision then the matter could still potentially be taken to The European Court. It really doesn't bare thinking about lets just invoke article 50 and get on with it.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 13, 2016
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  14. WEIGHTY CRIMSON PLUM

    WEIGHTY CRIMSON PLUM Well-Known Member

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    If the vote had of been for Remain would we then have had to decide what Remain means how we want to remain if it's hard Remain soft Remain total remain partial Remain or somewhere in between......
     
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  15. KIO

    KIO Well-Known Member

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    <laugh><applause>
     
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  16. zogean_king

    zogean_king Active Member

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    It could have been a partial remain, as in we need to vote every 2 days to see if we want to continue remaining
     
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  17. Cromercanary

    Cromercanary Well-Known Member
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    #897
  18. General Melchett

    General Melchett Well-Known Member

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    We have voted for Brexit, the EU will not allow any sort of soft Brexit that is actually meaningful in any way. Ergo our only real choice is a hard Brexit. Lets just get on with it. As has been said before a soft brexit meerly removes us from the EU decision making process but offers us so little by way of self governing power that it would be in my opinion a worthless excersize. Stay in and except free movement? People will complain. Continue to bow to every new EU hairbrained law? People complain. Continue to have our trade restricted/dictated terms? People complain. European courts overruling UK decisions? People complain. Then we may as well have not had the vote in the first place, everyone who was pee'd off with how things are/were is still pee'd off. More protest votes will ensue and it'll all be a farce until the politicians finally listen to the majority will.
    The only benefit to drawing this out is that the EU could collapse if Le Pen gets voted in and then article 50 will become a mute point as the whole sorry boys club comes tumbling down.
    I do see a benefit in some discussion on what exactly we will offer the EU and ask for in return, a concensus should be reached behind closed doors and a team from government (This can be cross party as long as they are working toward a common and decisive goals) should then set about achieving it. There is plenty of time to come up with this strategy before the proposed triggering of article 50 so lets get on with it! I do think we need to basically say to the EU that we would love to remain in the single market, but you can stick your political union up you bottoms.
    Free movement clearly one of the major dissatisfactions of many cannot be included in any deal because we will return to square one with the people again voting in protest. Afterall I'm sure the politicians can find a way to con the people with some clever work around. At the end of the day the politicians and their rich backers need the cheap labour so they only really need to pull the wool over the eyes of the people. If we have a quoter system, farmers will just state they require lots of unskilled eastern european migrants and they'll get here anyway.

    Bah!
     
    #898
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  19. Cromercanary

    Cromercanary Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely, to go in half-cock would be lunacy. But if Maggie may's objective of triggering this by the end of March is valid, best they start considering how best to proceed without any further delay.
    It's mid November already and we all know what a long, drawn out process even simple decision making is in this country!
     
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  20. ncgandy

    ncgandy Well-Known Member

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    Crikey, don’t call her that, I had a terrible bout of déjà vu! <yikes>
     
    #900
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