Off Topic I lost my job today...

[Steven Toast]

I'm sorry to hear this pal.

Without sounding too conspiratorial (and this might be due to past experience), it sounds like they're looking for a reason to get rid of you without having to pay you.

If you've been there a long time and they're looking for cutbacks, you'll be a higher earner than some kid they can bring in for next to nowt. In my experience, this happens when a company has been told to downsize and the management are ****ing cowardly and don't want to have tough conversations with people, especially ones they might have to give large redundancy packages to.

Because if they gave you an alcohol test and it was negative a few weeks ago, presumably they'd have tested you when they found the bottle (which is bullshit anyway as it's the same as finding a pack of ***s in your pocket and assuming you're smoking on the job) and they haven't, which is very suspicious.

Whenever you go for a meeting, demand that there's an ally with you in the room as a witness, ensure everything is given to you in writing, make sure they've followed the policies to the letter (they should have their grounds for dismissal in your contract, which you should have a copy of).

For now, just take stock, breathe, take a few days to process and plot your next steps. Whatever you do in the next 24/48 hours will be fuelled by an emotional response, so ensure that you keep as calm as possible and prepare any responses when calm and clear of mind.

 

[Edelman]

I'm sorry to hear this pal.

Without sounding too conspiratorial (and this might be due to past experience), it sounds like they're looking for a reason to get rid of you without having to pay you.

If you've been there a long time and they're looking for cutbacks, you'll be a higher earner than some kid they can bring in for next to nowt. In my experience, this happens when a company has been told to downsize and the management are ****ing cowardly and don't want to have tough conversations with people, especially ones they might have to give large redundancy packages to.

Because if they gave you an alcohol test and it was negative a few weeks ago, presumably they'd have tested you when they found the bottle (which is bullshit anyway as it's the same as finding a pack of ***s in your pocket and assuming you're smoking on the job) and they haven't, which is very suspicious.

Whenever you go for a meeting, demand that there's an ally with you in the room as a witness, ensure everything is given to you in writing, make sure they've followed the policies to the letter (they should have their grounds for dismissal in your contract, which you should have a copy of).

For now, just take stock, breathe, take a few days to process and plot your next steps. Whatever you do in the next 24/48 hours will be fuelled by an emotional response, so ensure that you keep as calm as possible and prepare any responses when calm and clear of mind.

Yes I agree it seems the upshot is trying to get rid without paying the subsequent redundancy .
People rarely get back or want that job back but redundancy is the minimal entitlement.
It's been cut back over time but I'm sure it's around £17,000

 

[Trumpton Tiger.]

So yes, I lost my job of 25yrs. It was a skilled but manual job and I lost it through partly my own fault.

A couple of people saw an empty bottle of vodka in my work jacket, they reported this to management and so the outcome is I didn’t have a leg to stand on.

I'm 58yrs, 60 next year, so it's going to be very difficult to find a new position for those reasons.

I don't drive and I'm no use on computers, so I'm feeling somewhat lost tbh.

You know what, I don't really know else to say really.

It was so difficult to tell my wife and family when I got home this afternoon and they understandably haven't taken it too well.

You know what, worse things are happening in the world today, so I'm going to end my whinging right here.

Just feeling a bit worried about our future and where to go from here.

Bad news pal. Couldn't you have said someone planted the bottle to get you sacked?

 

[tigerrev]

Sorry to hear about this. ST has it spot on for me - sounds like management trying to find a way to get rid of you on the cheap. Hopefully union can get you reinstated. Best to you and your family through this

 

[Plum]

****ty news and an equally ****ty employer by the sound of it. Good luck with whatever happens next.

 

[Duke Silver]

Bad news pal. Couldn't you have said someone planted the bottle to get you sacked?

I'm not sure that would be advisable- if it is proven the bottle IS his, or, he cannot prove the bottle isn't his, either way, they've then got Kempton blacklisted as a liar.
Best thing is to take stock, be calm, gather as much information as you can and speak to people who deal with this every day.

Fingers crossed this works out in your favour Kempton.

 

[Chazz Rheinhold]

I’m with Unite too
And I can only speak about my experience but they were there but I had to lead on it all
I had to do all the legwork and read up on everything and put my case forward, with help off someone on here, and it’s fuxking hard.

 

[petersaxton]

Even if I was in a trade union I would still read up about it at ACAS
https://www.acas.org.uk/

 

[Frodsham Tiger]

I'm sorry to hear this pal.

Without sounding too conspiratorial (and this might be due to past experience), it sounds like they're looking for a reason to get rid of you without having to pay you.

If you've been there a long time and they're looking for cutbacks, you'll be a higher earner than some kid they can bring in for next to nowt. In my experience, this happens when a company has been told to downsize and the management are ****ing cowardly and don't want to have tough conversations with people, especially ones they might have to give large redundancy packages to.

Because if they gave you an alcohol test and it was negative a few weeks ago, presumably they'd have tested you when they found the bottle (which is bullshit anyway as it's the same as finding a pack of ***s in your pocket and assuming you're smoking on the job) and they haven't, which is very suspicious.

Whenever you go for a meeting, demand that there's an ally with you in the room as a witness, ensure everything is given to you in writing, make sure they've followed the policies to the letter (they should have their grounds for dismissal in your contract, which you should have a copy of).

For now, just take stock, breathe, take a few days to process and plot your next steps. Whatever you do in the next 24/48 hours will be fuelled by an emotional response, so ensure that you keep as calm as possible and prepare any responses when calm and clear of mind.

This I do believe to be largely true of many companies. A common tactic is also 'out-managing' - I experienced it myself last year when they wanted rid of a bunch of us who'd been there for years. Instead of giving us what would have been decent redundancy packages they made the job so ****, we all just resigned and went to new roles.

Really sorry to hear this Kempton, but there is a lot of good advice in this thread that I can't add much more to. You cannot be dismissed unless you've been through disciplinaries, verbal and written warnings etc. But even in these days of supposed employment rights, there are still many unscrupulous companies that will try every trick and loophole in the book to avoid paying out.

After 25 years, the absolute minimum statutory redundancy pay you should be due is £17,130. And if you have anything detailed in your contract it could be more. Good luck mate.

 

[dennisboothstash]

This I do believe to be largely true of many companies. A common tactic is also 'out-managing' - I experienced it myself last year when they wanted rid of a bunch of us who'd been there for years. Instead of giving us what would have been decent redundancy packages they made the job so ****, we all just resigned and went to new roles.

Really sorry to hear this Kempton, but there is a lot of good advice in this thread that I can't add much more to. You cannot be dismissed unless you've been through disciplinaries, verbal and written warnings etc. But even in these days of supposed employment rights, there are still many unscrupulous companies that will try every trick and loophole in the book to avoid paying out.

After 25 years, the absolute minimum statutory redundancy pay you should be due is £17,130. And if you have anything detailed in your contract it could be more. Good luck mate.

Too late sadly (3 month time limit) but there would have been nothing to stop you taking the company to a Tribunal for constructive dismissal even though you resigned.

 

[Heimdallr]

Don't say or write anything without legal representation via your union. Don't attend any meetings or informal chats without also.

I disagree with some of the previous posters posts, although my company legal knowledge is 16 years out of date, as there are legitimate grounds for dismissal, an empty bottle can be good enough excuse, especially if they believe there can be a danger to yourself or others from drinking on the job - if it is a critical job, the bottle enough is evidence. The alcohol test 4 weeks prior implies that the management have been preparing something.

Hope you get a good outcome.

 

[petersaxton]

Don't say or write anything without legal representation via your union. Don't attend any meetings or informal chats without also.

I disagree with some of the previous posters posts, although my company legal knowledge is 16 years out of date, as there are legitimate grounds for dismissal, an empty bottle can be good enough excuse, especially if they believe there can be a danger to yourself or others from drinking on the job - if it is a critical job, the bottle enough is evidence. The alcohol test 4 weeks prior implies that the management have been preparing something.

Hope you get a good outcome.

If they can do alcohol tests 4 weeks prior how can they then say that the bottle alone is sufficient evidence?

 

[BlackAndAmberGambler]

I'm sorry to hear this pal.

Without sounding too conspiratorial (and this might be due to past experience), it sounds like they're looking for a reason to get rid of you without having to pay you.

If you've been there a long time and they're looking for cutbacks, you'll be a higher earner than some kid they can bring in for next to nowt. In my experience, this happens when a company has been told to downsize and the management are ****ing cowardly and don't want to have tough conversations with people, especially ones they might have to give large redundancy packages to.

Because if they gave you an alcohol test and it was negative a few weeks ago, presumably they'd have tested you when they found the bottle (which is bullshit anyway as it's the same as finding a pack of ***s in your pocket and assuming you're smoking on the job) and they haven't, which is very suspicious.

Whenever you go for a meeting, demand that there's an ally with you in the room as a witness, ensure everything is given to you in writing, make sure they've followed the policies to the letter (they should have their grounds for dismissal in your contract, which you should have a copy of).

For now, just take stock, breathe, take a few days to process and plot your next steps. Whatever you do in the next 24/48 hours will be fuelled by an emotional response, so ensure that you keep as calm as possible and prepare any responses when calm and clear of mind.

Sorry to hear this Kemps but take note of this very sound advice.

 

[Gone For A Walk]

I'm sorry to hear this and I hope you find a positive way through it all Kemps.

I'm also sorry to say that I suspect there's more to this than is being said on here. Everyone is jumping on the company without really knowing anything about the facts.

Safety, especially in an engineering / manufacturing environment is paramount. If those colleagues were concerned about safety (of themselves, others, or Kemps himself), and if Kemps had been drinking or has a reputation for drinking pre-work, then they have done absolutely right in flagging it to management. No question.

It is then highly unlikely that a company would instantly dismiss someone just for the fun of it.

At least it sounds like Unite are now involved. I detest Unite with a passion, and for good reason (well, several good reasons actually). Bar one, I've found their officers to be lying, deceitful, odious characters, but having said that, if Kemps has a valid case for appeal, then they will take the company on and get the right outcome. If there really isn't a valid case for appeal, then it's possible that Unite would not fight it.

I know I'm swimming against the tide, but just saying it as I see it. Chin up Kemps, you'll get through this.

 

[GEvans76]

Sorry to hear that Kempton.
When you say manual work do work with machinery and if you had been drinking would that put others at risk?
If yes not sure how can fight it.
If you do have a drink problem they do have a duty of care and that might be your best angle.

 

[dennisboothstash]

…
I'm also sorry to say that I suspect there's more to this than is being said on here. Everyone is jumping on the company without really knowing anything about the facts.

Safety, especially in an engineering / manufacturing environment is paramount. If those colleagues were concerned about safety (of themselves, others, or Kemps himself), and if Kemps had been drinking or has a reputation for drinking pre-work, then they have done absolutely right in flagging it to management. No question.

It is then highly unlikely that a company would instantly dismiss someone just for the fun of it.

At least it sounds like Unite are now involved. I detest Unite with a passion, and for good reason (well, several good reasons actually). Bar one, I've found their officers to be lying, deceitful, odious characters, but having said that, if Kemps has a valid case for appeal, then they will take the company on and get the right outcome. If there really isn't a valid case for appeal, then it's possible that Unite would not fight it.

I know I'm swimming against the tide, but just saying it as I see it. Chin up Kemps, you'll get through this.

No one is ‘jumping on the company’
There’s been idle speculation about whether they are trying to reduce staff and this is a convenience, in the same way that you are idly speculating.
The vast majority are simply offering sensible advice that anyone in a difficult situation might benefit from, regardless of the facts, which is important because when you’re in the eye of the storm you can feel defeated when in fact the best thing you can do is stay calm and build a logical case that you have been treated more poorly than you deserve.
The facts come out later, and Union reps will take them into consideration too.
No idea why you have such a poor view of Unite, but union reps are vital at a time like this (which is of course what you said too tbf)

 

[AlRawdah]

Bad news pal. Couldn't you have said someone planted the bottle to get you sacked?

Only if it’s true. “Tell a lie” is shocking advice.

 

[Gone For A Walk]

No one is ‘jumping on the company’
There’s been idle speculation about whether they are trying to reduce staff and this is a convenience, in the same way that you are idly speculating.
The vast majority are simply offering sensible advice that anyone in a difficult situation might benefit from, regardless of the facts, which is important because when you’re in the eye of the storm you can feel defeated when in fact the best thing you can do is stay calm and build a logical case that you have been treated more poorly than you deserve.
The facts come out later, and Union reps will take them into consideration too.
No idea why you have such a poor view of Unite, but union reps are vital at a time like this (which is of course what you said too tbf)

Yes, we are all speculating, that was my main point.
Some people are "jumping on the company" (whether directly or implicitly), and also on colleagues. Examples below.
I agree, there is some good advice. As I said, now that Unite are involved, Kemps should get the support he needs (in terms of a potential appeal or otherwise).
My poor view (understatement) of Unite is based on several real life experiences over many years. I've come across truly despicable characters even though I worked for one of the best employers going (pay, conditions, safety, training, culture). That said, Unions have a role to play, and hopefully they now do their job.
Anyway, not about us arguing the toss. Hope it gets sorted fairly.

· Sounds like something you'd expect from an American employer. Despite the best efforts of some, in this country we still rights that people fought hard for

· This sounds all wrong mate.

· There are many more rules in the ACAS code that don't seem to have been followed

· sounds like some twat had it in for you

· it sounds like you've been stitched up

· it sounds like they're looking for a reason to get rid of you without having to pay you

· trying to get rid without paying the subsequent redundancy

· sounds like management trying to find a way to get rid of you on the cheap

· an equally ****ty employer by the sound of it

· common tactic is also 'out-managing'

· goodie two shoes who dobbed you in. Something succint like, thanks b*****d

· The alcohol test 4 weeks prior implies that the management have been preparing something.

 

[AlRawdah]

No one is ‘jumping on the company’
There’s been idle speculation about whether they are trying to reduce staff and this is a convenience, in the same way that you are idly speculating.
The vast majority are simply offering sensible advice that anyone in a difficult situation might benefit from, regardless of the facts, which is important because when you’re in the eye of the storm you can feel defeated when in fact the best thing you can do is stay calm and build a logical case that you have been treated more poorly than you deserve.
The facts come out later, and Union reps will take them into consideration too.
No idea why you have such a poor view of Unite, but union reps are vital at a time like this (which is of course what you said too tbf)

I too have been in the eye of this storm and it’s really scary and unpleasant. You have my sympathies Kempton.

There is some good advice on here, you should definitely talk to your union. I would also suggest talking to an employment lawyer, it won’t cost you up front if your case is strong (and it sounds like it is, from what you’ve posted).

Don’t post the answer here - but I suspect the key question is “what were the reasons stated for doing an alcohol test four weeks ago”. If they can’t give a well reasoned answer to that, you’re in a massively strong position.

 

[Amin Arrears]

What on earth was someone doing going through your pockets anyway?