Hull and back

Christ I didn't realise it was that bad Westy but after watching the first half I can fully believe it, Pennington was probably our best player and Spence our worst player along with about 7 others.
I can't remember an ITFC team being booed off at half time away from home that's how bad it was.
Hull fans couldn't believe how bad we were, they thought before the game that nobody could be worse than them, what a shambles, what an embarrassment.

 

This puts the task at hand nicely into perspective.

We were looking at the squad before Hurst made any signings and most of us agreed there was not an awful lot to work with. We were looking at realistic candidates for the job and most of us had Hurst in the top two or three names, so it is hard to point the finger at him now.

Perhaps what we are seeing in the table is just the consequence of the owner gradually running the club into the ground.

 

I can accept that I have a stubbornly uncynical view of Evans but I don't think this follows.

Hurst was the type of target we all wanted and shows a willingness to move away from tried and trusted of previous 3 appointments. So I don't think he can be accused of anything untoward there.

Evans has also trusted his new man in the transfer market. Ok we've not got 100% of targets but I don't think 9 new signings then some more shows a lack of backing. If reports that Walters was Evans' idea are true then it shows a proactive interest in the team too.

As discussed earlier in the thread our form is horrific and some of the worst offenders are members of the old squad. I think some of Mick's undeniable experience at getting just enough and Waghorns goals at the start of the season really effectively disguised bigger problems with the squad, particularly when the style of play is trying to be changed.

 

I don’t agree that Mick left us in a mess. There were some holes in the squad when the loanees returned to their parent clubs, but we had a fairly stable and strong squad here when Hurst arrived. In fact, most of us on here agreed it was a decent, mid-table squad that needed investment. It was not a squad deserving of bottom place in the league. The way I see it, the main issue has been that the overwhelming amount of departures this summer left us playing catch up and needing to bring in a host of new signings. Some of those departures, such as McGoldrick (doing well at Sheffield United) and Hyam, happened before Hurst arrived, so he can hardly be blamed for that. We were also unlucky that two of our best players, Webster and Waghorn, wanted out and Garner also wanted a move up north. We lost a lot of experience this summer, and not due to Hurst’s ideal choice, who has gone on the record that he wanted to keep both Waghorn and Webster.

On first impressions, Hurst has bought in some good players (Edwards, Walters, Nsiala, and Donacien) and some average players (Roberts, Graham, Harrison, and Jackson). While the squad will need time after such upheaval (replacing a manager who has been here for six years is also a hard thing to do), my fear is that it either clicks when it’s too late or players lose faith and results continue to evade us.

Some people may actually like the idea of Hurst, and what he represents / represented, rather than the reality. We are only several games into the new season, but his dogged determination to retain a failing formation and a pragmatic approach to style that is starting to resemble Mick’s way of playing are not promising signs. Unlike Mick and his squad, this team seem unable to win matches and get points on the board. Our form has been terrible for months, as Westy pointed out, and the feeling is this is a club in decline.

 

Our experienced proven strikers have left so we don't score goals, their replacements from the lower leagues look exactly what they are which is ineffective at Championship level, so we don't score goals and don't win matches, would someone please explain to me how useless passengers are going to turned into consistent goal scorers by our management team who look equally ineffective.

 

"Useless Passengers" might be a bit harsh, but I understand the point. I have to say that had Waghorn still been here, we'd probably have got a couple of wins under our belt and be sat mid table.

From what I've seen of seen of Harrison, he looks like a decent player but perhaps one not suited for an isolated lone striker role. Jackson looks like a real 'Project' who needs a lot of work. His first touch has been pretty poor but he looks an aboslute beast of an athlete who just needs to learn the technical and tactical side, which will hopefully be accelerated by training alongside someone like Walters

 

I think under Hurst's system, the striker is not expected or required to chip in with many goals. At Shrewsbury, only one striker scored double figures (and he was often played wide) so the wingers in the system were often the players getting the majority of the goals, along with Jon Nolan as an attacking midfielder. Whether Nolan will improve sufficiently to start troubling the scoreboard remains to be seen, but I expect when Huws is fully match fit, he will replace Nolan in that advanced position. Out wide, Edwards is arguably our most promising player and is capable of scoring at home, although is often nullified away from Portman Road, based on the first eight odd games. It is the other wing position where we look weak and it's leading to disjointed attacking play. Freddie Sears, Ellis Harrison, Kayden Jackson, and Jordan Graham have all been tried in that wide left position, and none of them look like consistent, reliable threats. So it's either change the system or stick with it and hope either one of those four players come good in that position, or give either Jon Walters or Danny Rowe a go. I know Rowe is not rated particularly highly, and didn't impress in League Two at Lincoln, but he could be worth a try following some good U23 form. Alternatively, we opt for Walters and his industry down that flank, similar to Sears' approach.

Obviously the fact that Harrison and Jackson are still without a league goal (at time of writing) is a concern, and I'm not excusing their lack of potency in front of goal, but I think we need some more intent and menace on our left flank otherwise we predictably channel attacks down Edwards' flank and when he gets doubled up by opposition defenders, he's unable to exert as much pressure as he can with both flanks operating well.

 

I’ve got to say I just don’t understand this system. Maybe it works in League One and maybe it works when you have Bale on one wing and Ronaldo on the other and Messi in Nolan’s role.

It’s almost like it’s a False 9 system but with a number 9. Absolutely baffled.

Going back to slightly earlier post - whether we like the idea of Hurst but it’s not the reality. Of course it starts with an idea but believe you me it has got to become reality over the next couple of months. Hurst did lose me around the late transfer deadline dealings but after that he won me back over fairly quickly with his accurate assessments of the situation.

 

His most used formation last season was a 4-1-4-1, which is a bit unorthodox, but it worked in League One. Looking at their results last season, they had 14 wins, six draws, and three defeats in first 23 league games, 11 wins, six draws, and six defeats in the second half of the season, so not sure the whole 'Shrewsbury got found out in the second half of the season' argument (made by some on TWTD) holds much water. It's not uncommon to have a frontman that doesn't score a shedload of goals, but it only works if the wingers and attacking midfielders consistently contribute.

For us, Jackson doesn't seem a natural fit for a striker that can hold the ball up. I don't doubt that he can, but from what I've seen, he prefers using his pace (his best weapon) and plays off the shoulder to carve out shooting opportunities. Harrison seems a more natural fit for the typical Hurst frontman, but hasn't put in consistent performances. As for the wingers, Edwards scores at home and looks a threat (away form iffy), but we don't have anyone decent out left. Either give Ward a sustained run of games and play him with Edwards (switching flanks when necessary) or give a chance Danny Rowe. Failing that, we shouldn't play wingers.

 

The best way for Harrison and Jackson to be effective would be for Harrison to play off Jackson. In this system that puts Harrison where Nolan is sitting. And it's completely pointless to play Skuse and Chalobah together because if goals need to come from the midfield then neither of those will chip in with many so drop one of them and play Nolan in midfield.

However, we have been saying this for two months now and it hasn't happened yet so I don't see that it's about to change.

 

From what I've seen, whilst Nolan has been a bit of a disappointment. The biggest issue (and quickest fix) would be to play someone alongside him (or at least a bit closer)

We seem to play with 2 holding midfielders & 1 attacking midfielder.. Or at least select players who naturally gravitate to that style of play. Chalobah, Edun or Downes need to be far more adventurous & not just sit alongside Skuse, which is what they seem to have done.

A box to box midfielder who is competent in possession is what we need and I'm sure any of Chalobah, Edun and Downes can be that player.

 

As you've both mentioned above, this is the crux of the issue for me too. Skuse has scored two goals in his 244 league appearances for Ipswich. Chalobah has one scrappy senior goal to his name and doesn't look a potent enough threat when he gets forward (two England youth goals across 35 odd games also does not make for positive reading). Downes is ineffective going forward (the season opener and recent match against Hull proved that). Edun looks better in the final third, particularly with his technique on the ball, but I doubt his defensive abilities. Ideally, we need Dozzell and Huws back fit and in the first team, because I'd start both of them ahead of either Skuse or Chalobah in a central three (with two pushing forward), behind a striker and two wide players.

Out of what we currently have available, I guess I'd opt for a midfield trio of Skuse behind Edun and Nolan.

 

I would probably go for Chalobah, Nolan and Harrison / Sears because Chalobah just has a bit more bite to his game. He is not as solid but he looks more likely to make things happen. With the two wingers and Jackson further up, that would be an exciting proposition for me. I'd be inclined to play Edun left because none of the other options are grabbing me. We should also switch wingers in games and swap over CAM with a winger. If you had Edwards, Harrison and Edun interchanging that would give the opposition absolute nightmares.

Like I said though, this is not how Hurst sees it so we probably will keep it much the same until the formation gets abandoned altogether. If Huws is ever fit I'd say that's a bonus but not someone we can build a plan around.

 

The player that would probably fit most comfortably into that midfield slot is Adeyemi

Albeit he hasn't played for ages and no one knows if he'll ever be fit/what sort of level he'll be at, but as a physical presence that can get into attacking positions and support in attack, he has probably the most pedigree after his productive spell at Rotherham.