I guess part of the problem is that she didn't do this, as is the case with many politicians, but there was such a litany of treating people poorly and inequitably that people remain very bitter
I will lay my cards on the table and admit that my political views are, let's just say, 'right of centre' and I tend to side with JWM for the most part. However, regardless of each others political leanings to glorify in the death of anyone is beyond belief. I personally have a loathing and passionate dislike for Tony Blair but I wouldn't wish death on him nor would I revel in it if he were to die. I happen to believe in a greater God and find the actions of some regarding Mrs Thatcher's death abhorrent. Notwithstanding all that, it is never a good idea to discuss politics with your friends as it's often the easiest way to fall out with each other, sometimes for good. I've said my piece and I'm leaving it there and off to debate football on another thread
I wasn't taking sides, I was pointing out why youngsters may have been joining in, but being a moderator doesn't prevent me from having an opinion on anything or anyone
I respect not agree with what you are saying totally. But can I ask, without causing any offence, what your Dad did about the increasing problem of intransigence within the NUR. In the Printing Union, excluding the Capitals newspapers where employer and employee alike were as bad as one another, if the members of each "chapel", which is each individual company's workforce who are union members, did not agree with many of the appeals made by head office, then no action was taken. For instance, while I stated earlier that our chapel supported the Miners financially, we contributed not one penny to the Wapping dispute because we didn't believe in its validity. Nor did we stop work at any stage. And most of us were not afraid to speak out at meetings, whereby the more, and I'm being kind here, timid people sat on their hands. If you haven't got the backbone to say out loud what you think, and protect your own family and friends, then you deserve to be steamrollered by those with hidden agendas. As a Union secretary, I was threatened physically by those with trouble in mind and my phone was tapped by the Government, just because I and my colleagues dared stand up things we didn't agree with. I was always fed up with those who said bugger all at a meeting but moaned afterwards. And that is why it was easy to load a meeting so it went they way you wanted it to because of pathetic disinterest by the majority.
I think that the point I am trying to make is that regardless of who it is and what they have done or not done the celebration of someone's slide into to dementia and death is not to be justified, let alone encouraged. If people are still bitter about events of 30 years ago then maybe it is time to forgive if not forget and move on. When all is said and done this country for all it's faults is a brilliant place to live, we enjoy wealth and political freedoms that others, including our grandparents could only dream of. The 70's were pretty grim and frankly things are exponentially better now than then - we have better food, healthcare, more and more varied leisure available, better housing, greater life expectancy etc etc plus in the 70's Ipswich were winning things and now we are top dog!
For many you may be right but if you read the alternative eulogy, social exclusion has never been higher, for a huge population life is pretty ****e It's not just about what happened at the time, it's the enduring legacy.
RR To be honest I was too young to remember all the ins and outs but what I did know is that my Dad was pretty broken by what was happening towards the end of his time at BR. I am not saying that Unions are bad far from it, what I am saying is that in the main they were out of control and something radical needed to be done. Wilson and Callaghan both missed a golden opportunity to reform the unions by not implementing Barbara Castle's "In place of Strife" reforms back in 1968. I think this was due to vested interests and the reforms were mothballed as they would have been too hard to implement. If Callaghan had gone to the country in the Autumn of 1978 he would have stood a great chance of winning but he dithered and then we had the Winter of discontent and the rest is history. I was only a kid back in those days but even I noticed the effect that this had on my old man. Thatcher did some great things for this country and yes hubris finally set in during her third term but in the main she did the things that needed to be done.
We finally have some common ground, there has always been the opportunity for legislation to control all the excesses of life. We have laws in this country and we should uphold them. Politicians make laws and then just leave someone else to administer them. I cannot abide politics at all. Its too decisive, exclusive and leaves you with only one choice, take it or leave it. In fact, even though my beliefs would be tagged socialist, I despise Blair and Thatcher with equanimity.
You see RR it is possible to reach common ground by using robust arguement! We will never agree as our political views are poles apart but I do respect where you are coming from. I deplore all this fake hatred by kids that weren't even there to experience what life was really like. I hope that she gets a good send off next week without too much unpleasantness but alas I doubt it!
I understand the frustration people have with the welfare state and I agree there is a sub culture of people who take the piss, but we can't go testing on people that's like something which would happen at Aushwitz. The number one problem this country has is a lack of education there are generations of people who have not been educated with basic life skills. The system allows them to get by and the more kids they have the more rewarded they are, nine times out of ten they are the worlds worse parents which usually means they lack discipline in the household which in return equates to more crime, also some of their kids are quite likely to continue the trend by living off the State and having children by the bus load. Three things I'd do to improve the situation. -The education system needs a general studies type lesson to teach kids about society and life skills this needs to start at young age like from the first year of school onwards. The system needs to notice that not all kids are academical and cater towards those who are creative or vocational, by the time some kids are teenagers they effectively give up it needs to encourage their aspirations whatever they be. -Getting people back into jobs this is a difficult one as obviously in some regions they don't grow on tree's. There is a sub culture for generations that have remained on job seekers allowance it's going to be hard to make them get up and do a days work, I suggest that the government offer people the opportunity to earn extra money on their benefits if they work in their local area, things like decorating public areas, clearing up and maintenance as the council employee's cannot be everywhere. We love to complain that area looks bad but if the locals are doing the work then it installs a sense of pride in their area and hopefully motivates them to find full time employment. -Investment in the area. Give the kids things to do. Yes it's very easy to kick a ball around with your mates in the local park but give them many different things to do, as the chances are their parents don't give a toss about them. Give people hobbies, give them social life and give them a sense of purpose.
Eventhough people feel strongly about her and what she did when she was Prime Minister, there is no doubting that she was a strong leader who wasn't swayed by focus groups or every passing opinion poll. That takes real deep conviction and courage which as we all know is very much lacking with all of today's political shower. Even after death she is still provoking strong feelings on both sides of the spectrum and for good or ill she has to go down as a towering figure in the history of these islands. Her legacy is still casting a long shadow with many of her policies still in tact. Historians will be arguing about Thatcher the woman, her policies and her legacy all bound up in Thatcherism long after we are all dead and buried. She was easily labelled as being idealogical but she was far more pragmatic than that and the one quality that she had above all was the ability to understand exactly what the man in the street wanted. No other politician has articulated that to the same degree although Blair tried! Her support in electoral terms grew from the 1979 election and by 1987 she had actually gained support whereas Blair lost support between 1997 & 2005. I admit that she is not every one's cup of tea but no one can deny that she changed the weather and shifted the whole debate in politics for ever.
