How do you rank previous World Champions?

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by DHCanary, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. cosicave

    cosicave Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Thanks DHC, I should have included Gurney. Frentzen will also get a mention. Time for a quick edit…

    [Apologies to Giggsy, Westlake and at least one popular member of this forum who's not been around so much recently: Schumacher will not be moving].
     
    #21
  2. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    It's all opinions... People can't get upset at your opinion ole chap. :)
     
    #22
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  3. EternalMSC

    EternalMSC Well-Known Member

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    1. Schumacher - Was in a world of his own. 7 championships earned in the days of the old points system. Had his fair share of poor cars, pushed them to the absolute max (late 90's) taking the challenge to Newey's Mclarens. Rewarded with a unmatched Ferrari team during the 00's. What he did back in the day is much more significant now... ahead of his time.

    1. Senna - Again pure driving talent, had his flaws as did Michael. We were deprived of what could have been a titanic battle in the early 90's. What was to be was written in the stars.

    2. Hamilton/ Mansell/ Prost/ Alonso- On another level to other drivers currently, nothing more to be said. Only behind the drivers above because of his lack of ability in poor cars, (2009-2012).

    3. Hakkinen.


    Vettel probably not top 3, lost potentially 2 World Championships on his own merit. But did his job well when a dominant car was provided (2010-2013).

    Button/ Raikkonen/ Villeneuve/ Hill / Rosberg probably on a level pegging.
     
    #23
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  4. Westlake33

    Westlake33 Well-Known Member

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    Alain Prost was very good in the wet until something happened to either a team mate / rival one season. I will look when another day - but after that incident happened ( minds gone blank ) Prost decided hanging everything out in the wet was no longer for him.

    Granted, he still wasn't a patch on Senna ( no one is ) / Schumacher / Alesi etc....but he was good enough in the wet before.
     
    #24
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  5. Westlake33

    Westlake33 Well-Known Member

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    Don't make me laugh re Damon 94.

    Now whether the B194 was kosher is an argument......... however it never did get banned so lets say it was for the sake of this.

    Adelaide was caused due to the FIA livening up the title with the way over the top punishment for Schumacher being an idiot on the parade lap at Silverstone. Sure, DQ. Perhaps one race ban. No, this was to liven things up. Same with Spa. Jos was legal - clear Schumacher's plank was due to that curb.

    First 4, Micky mouse for Michael v Hill.
    Hill won Spain due to Michael stuck in 5th gear.........
    Silverstone Michael ahead of Hill until penalty came out. Car then had issues second half of race. Would have won that too.
    Hockenheim - best either could have hoped for was 2nd behind Gerhard. Damon I think would have come 2nd, Schumacher 3rd.
    Hungary, easy for Schumacher vs Hill, AGAIN.
    Spa - DQ ( to liven up title ) and easy, again.
    Italy - Hill won due to Alesi's car breaking down, Panis being a nob to Berger in the pits. Not that Schumacher's B194 would have been capable of coming ahead of Hill.
    Portugal - Hill won vs no one. Berger broke down early. Schumacher would have walked basing the track layout as similar to Spain.
    Jerez - Schumacher won in his sleep.
    Japan - Hill won due to poor pit strategy by Benetton.

    Adelaide = fair play Schumacher. I don't remotely blame you for that.
     
    #25
  6. Westlake33

    Westlake33 Well-Known Member

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    The top 10 according to the Sheffield Academics (from 2016):
    1) Fangio
    2) Prost
    3) Schumacher
    4) Clark
    5) Senna

    Absolutely this.

    I think could go around in circles, and all worthy of praise / criticism.

    Lightyears ahead of everyone else.
     
    #26
  7. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't really feature here. A little out of date, but: https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/who-was-the-best-wet-weather-driver/
     
    #27
  8. Number 1 Jasper

    Number 1 Jasper Well-Known Member

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    Pironi swerved to avoid a slower car in the pi$$ing rain , didn’t see Prost in front of him , and that was that :(

    I really liked Didier , seems I am in a majority of one .....
     
    #28
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  9. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    Interesting stat, Mansell is the only WDC to "lose" comprehensively to his team-mates over the course of his full career.

    Outscored 482-491, out raced 72-75 and out qualified 92-97.

    Only other driver who might come close is Kimi Raikkonen, who currently sits at: 1751-1893 in points, 132-138 in races and 140-146 - that's uncorrected for points systems though, and you'd expect him to stand a reasonable chance of correcting that over 2 seasons at Sauber.
     
    #29
  10. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    It is an interesting stat on Mansell. Most of that will be due to his years at Lotus when he was up against the talented Elio de Angelis and Lotus ran a one car team, as de Angelis found when Senna stole Peter Warr's favour from him after Mansell left.

    Not sure the stats suggest he was comprehensively beaten, all the scores are pretty close.
     
    #30

  11. Westlake33

    Westlake33 Well-Known Member

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    That's the one.

    Not surprised Alain's attitude to the rain changed after that..... think it would affect most people!!

    Adelaide 89 = anyone surprised? Senna had a nasty crash with Brundle.
     
    #31
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  12. Westlake33

    Westlake33 Well-Known Member

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    Not at all surprised the stats back up my view of the most overrated driver - Kimi.
     
    #32
  13. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    Both 89 and 91 races were ridiculous there. Neither should have gone ahead but they did and in both there were situations where drivers could have got seriously injured or killed.

    No way they would ever have started these days, safety car or not. I know we complain that drivers should stop being such wimps and drive in all conditions, but those races were exceptions.
     
    #33
  14. Westlake33

    Westlake33 Well-Known Member

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    Tricky one that. While dangerous etc, they do get paid to race. Given how safe today’s cars are....

    Nowadays, Michael Spain 96, senna donnington/ Brazil 93 would have been ruined. Suzuka 94 also may have been half distance etc...

    I lost most of my proper interest in 2000. All downhill from there. All these penalties, drs, double point rubbish. Haven’t watched a single minute 2018 which is unthinkable, as 90s I set alarm for 2/3/4am races. It’s a shadow of its former self.
     
    #34
  15. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    Those two races were particularly extreme though. The others mentioned were not where near as bad, remember Japan did get halted for a while and then restarted with aggregate times.

    These days there is a core of drivers who are happy to race in any condition, and those who will do all they can to cry off a wet race.
     
    #35
  16. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Fatalities can still happen. Bianchi being a quite recent example.
     
    #36
  17. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    I think that's perhaps a little unfair. When dealing with Schumacher, the 2010-2012 years are frequently discarded, if you give Kimi the same treatment, his 01-09 career looks like:

    Quali 85-57, Races 59-39 (Can't be bothered doing points).

    Massa in '08 and Heidfeld in Kimi's debut season were the only ones to best him in either quali or races over one season. Montoya and Coulthard were comfortably dispatched by this metric.

    When he returned, he beat Grosjean but has since lost out heavily to two world champions, and I think few would argue he's looked like the driver he once was. Kimi's reputation should certainly have taken more of a battering in that time than it appears to have done.

    The next couple of seasons will be really interesting - if Kimi does still have significant talent, can he "do an Alonso" in that Sauber next season, and put it places it has no right to be? At least the team should be behind him, and it's easier to stand out in the midfield where the cars are more equal.
     
    #37
  18. dhel

    dhel Well-Known Member

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    "As for Hamilton, please... beaten by Rosberg and helped by reliability/ extra races era."
    Did you read what you wrote there? Didn't Hamilton whip Alonso as a Rookie. lol SERIOUSLY?


    Didn't Hamilton suffered a lot of car problems the season when Rosberg won the title?
    So it's ok to say Hamilton is helped by reliability and not Rosberg? Reliability? Have you forgotten how many time Hamilton suffered car failures in battles at Mercedes? This was the only year he didn't get too many. So are you saying his maturity and ability to keep his noise clean in races this year have nothing to do with his success? PLEASE!
     
    #38
  19. Julius Caesar

    Julius Caesar Well-Known Member
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    The problem with discarding Kimi's later years is that it means he was past it at 28 years old.
     
    #39
  20. Westlake33

    Westlake33 Well-Known Member

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    Oh Hamilton’s 2007 was superb. Whip Alonso?! Don’t be silly - but that year showed Lewis is class.

    However, he was beaten over a season by Nico.....

    It’s very hard to judge due to points system, more races nowadays, better reliability etc.

    However, to suggest Hamilton is better collectively than fangio, Clark, senna, Prost or Schumacher is clueless. Very evenly matched vs Button for heavens sake.
     
    #40

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