Hillsborough

[SpursDisciple]

Creating this thread as a place to make any comments you want to about the events of yesterday, as much to deflect them from other more light-hearted threads.

There is no doubt that it is a massive issue to all football fans - there but for the grace of God go any of us. The villains of the piece, for me, are the FA for putting such a big game in such an unsuitable venue, the Police for lying to cover their arses for being utterly incompetent and the Sun, for being the tawdry sentionalist rag it's always been and still is.

Happy to take any views on here, but bear in mind 96 football fans, many of them children, died watching a game we all love, please be respectful.

If you feel enough has been said elsewhere, happy to see this thread disappear.

 

[Spurf]

Yesterday, 01:13 PM #917
vimhawk
Senior Member



Achievements:


Join Date
Aug 2011
Posts
439
Points
1,861
Level
17
Post Thanks / Like
Rep Power
2

Just listened to the Prime Minister's Statement on Hillsborough. Doesn't make for good listening. Doesn't bode well for injustice in the future either if it takes over 20 years for the facts to come out. Also others could surely have benefited if mistakes had been learned from, but if they are not admitted and instead a counter campaign of discrediting innocent parties is instead instigated, it appears you can get away with it. Cameron might well be right in saying no government was involved in the cover up or campaign against the fans, but surely there is guilt by not working harder to uncover the truth. There are a lot of people to blame here, and many who should probably be prosecuted, but by the passage of time many will get away with it. Sad and disgraceful.

 

[Spurf]

Yesterday, 01:40 PM #919
Yid Vicious
Moderator



Achievements:


Join Date
Jun 2011
Posts
7,417
Points
18,070
Level
58
Post Thanks / Like
Rep Power
11

Originally Posted by vimhawk
Just listened to the Prime Minister's Statement on Hillsborough. Doesn't make for good listening. Doesn't bode well for injustice in the future either if it takes over 20 years for the facts to come out. Also others could surely have benefited if mistakes had been learned from, but if they are not admitted and instead a counter campaign of discrediting innocent parties is instead instigated, it appears you can get away with it. Cameron might well be right in saying no government was involved in the cover up or campaign against the fans, but surely there is guilt by not working harder to uncover the truth. There are a lot of people to blame here, and many who should probably be prosecuted, but by the passage of time many will get away with it. Sad and disgraceful.
He says that but there's further documents expected to be released that show that Thatcher knew that the police had made a lot of huge mistakes and didn't push for proper inquiries into the disaster. That'd make the old crow culpable.

It's ridiculous that it's taken this long to get some level of closure on the matter but I'm glad it has finally come around to this. Cloing ranks and hiding behind bureaucracy for so long on a disaster like Hillsborough is nothing short of disgraceful.

 

[Spurf]

Dan Starkey
Senior Member



Achievements:


Join Date
Jun 2011
Location
Noadibou
Posts
4,001
Points
9,874
Level
42
Post Thanks / Like
Rep Power
7

Originally Posted by Yid Vicious
He says that but there's further documents expected to be released that show that Thatcher knew that the police had made a lot of huge mistakes and didn't push for proper inquiries into the disaster. That'd make the old crow culpable.

It's ridiculous that it's taken this long to get some level of closure on the matter but I'm glad it has finally come around to this. Cloing ranks and hiding behind bureaucracy for so long on a disaster like Hillsborough is nothing short of disgraceful.

I know I've been pretty forthright in my opinions of LFC on this thread but I have always been 100% behind the JFT 96 campaign. These people have had their human rights trampled all over - all they asked for was the truth and words cannot describe the appalling treatment they've been subjected to. I personally don't believe there was no cover up either - you only have to look at the way fans of all clubs were treated throughout the 1980s to see how the Government viewed them and the speed at which they tried to apportion blame in the immediate aftermath for your evidence.

 

[Spurf]

imhawk
Senior Member



Achievements:


Join Date
Aug 2011
Posts
439
Points
1,861
Level
17
Post Thanks / Like
Rep Power
2

Originally Posted by Dan Starkey
I know I've been pretty forthright in my opinions of LFC on this thread but I have always been 100% behind the JFT 96 campaign. These people have had their human rights trampled all over - all they asked for was the truth and words cannot describe the appalling treatment they've been subjected to. I personally don't believe there was no cover up either - you only have to look at the way fans of all clubs were treated throughout the 1980s to see how the Government viewed them and the speed at which they tried to apportion blame in the immediate aftermath for your evidence.
The general treatment of fans for sure. Being caged in like animals. Basically no cages then if there's a crush there's an opportunity to spill onto the pitch. I wonder if the safety of fans was taken into account when the fencing was put up, because there were obvious potential consequences to this and the government went ahead anyway, demonstrating as you say the general view of the fans by the government.

 

[Spurf]

Yesterday, 02:36 PM #922
humanbeingincroydon
Senior Member



Achievements:


Join Date
May 2011
Location
People's Republic of Croydon
Posts
5,468
Points
12,240
Level
47
Post Thanks / Like
Rep Power
7

Originally Posted by Yid Vicious
He says that but there's further documents expected to be released that show that Thatcher knew that the police had made a lot of huge mistakes and didn't push for proper inquiries into the disaster. That'd make the old crow culpable.

It's ridiculous that it's taken this long to get some level of closure on the matter but I'm glad it has finally come around to this. Cloing ranks and hiding behind bureaucracy for so long on a disaster like Hillsborough is nothing short of disgraceful.
She won't testify anyway - she's senile these days so she it's highly unlikely she'd be called as a witness, let alone charged.

The thing about the Hillsbrough fallout is, whilst people say it was wrong to shift all the blame onto the Liverpool fans, they have no problem shifting all the blame onto South Yorkshire Police - and that's before some of the more ridiculous conspiracy theories that have done the rounds over the years.

The fact is that Leppings Lane was an disaster waiting to happen, indeed it very nearly happened to Spurs in '83, but as usually happens in cases like this the disaster has to happen before anyone actually does something about it (the same can be said for the idea of carrying enough lifeboats for all the passengers only after the Titanic sank to give another example)

Several of the things that happened on the day could have been avoided - the coach that arrived ten minutes after kick-off causing the crush outside the ground, fans without valid tickets forcing their way in (as covered in this eyewitness account) - but they did happen, and South Yorkshire Police didn't know how to handle it. If the coach arrived half an hour earlier, there wouldn't have been the crush and they wouldn't have lost control of the situation outside that led to what happened inside.

 

[Spurf]

All of the comments about Hillsborough have been very respectful and well thought out, so far.
This is a very sensitive subject, so can we please keep it this way?
Thanks in advance.
Edit Post Reply Reply With Quote Blog this Post

Yesterday, 04:24 PM #924
gaf 71
Senior Member



Achievements:


Join Date
May 2011
Age
40
Posts
816
Points
4,290
Level
27
Post Thanks / Like
Rep Power
4

Originally Posted by PleaseNotPoll
All of the comments about Hillsborough have been very respectful and well thought out, so far.
This is a very sensitive subject, so can we please keep it this way?
Thanks in advance.
Well said PNP.

 

[Spurf]

notsosmartspur
Senior Member



Achievements:


Join Date
May 2011
Location
My house.
Posts
5,600
Points
16,887
Level
56
Post Thanks / Like
Rep Power
7

I think today of all days the subject has no need for comment, there's enough been said on TV, and I would imagine everyone would echo that. As long as the outcome is satisfactory, and helps the families and all associated with LFC move on, then good, about time too.

 

[Spurf]

NI Revolution In Red
Senior Member



Achievements:


Join Date
Jun 2011
Location
Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland
Posts
2,918
Points
11,955
Level
47
Post Thanks / Like
Rep Power
24

Originally Posted by Hoddle Is A God
And can I say that I don't want this thread infected by Hillsborough comments.

None of us will look good in this, which ever the divide we choose to put ourselves on.
Do you mean a side over Hillsborough?

There no longer is a 'side' to be on, thankfully we now have the truth.

But appreciate the sentiments, I'm tired and pedantic.

 

[Spurf]

Sir_Red
Senior Member



Achievements:


Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
3,202
Points
13,362
Level
50
Post Thanks / Like
Rep Power
22

Originally Posted by humanbeingincroydon
She won't testify anyway - she's senile these days so she it's highly unlikely she'd be called as a witness, let alone charged.

The thing about the Hillsbrough fallout is, whilst people say it was wrong to shift all the blame onto the Liverpool fans, they have no problem shifting all the blame onto South Yorkshire Police - and that's before some of the more ridiculous conspiracy theories that have done the rounds over the years.

The fact is that Leppings Lane was an disaster waiting to happen, indeed it very nearly happened to Spurs in '83, but as usually happens in cases like this the disaster has to happen before anyone actually does something about it (the same can be said for the idea of carrying enough lifeboats for all the passengers only after the Titanic sank to give another example)

Several of the things that happened on the day could have been avoided - the coach that arrived ten minutes after kick-off causing the crush outside the ground, fans without valid tickets forcing their way in (as covered in this eyewitness account) - but they did happen, and South Yorkshire Police didn't know how to handle it. If the coach arrived half an hour earlier, there wouldn't have been the crush and they wouldn't have lost control of the situation outside that led to what happened inside.
HBC it was that the Police then tried to cover it up and blame hooliganism (which the Sun lapped up) that makes them the scum. If they had admitted their failings at the get go, along with an inquiry into the infrastructure too, then those poor families wouldnt have had to suffer 23 years of insult heaped on to their injuries

 

[Spurf]

I have transferred the Hillsborough comments from HIAG's thread at the request of several posters.

I am afraid the quote box does not show so take care to note which is a quote from a previous poster and which the new comment.

 

[notsosmartspur]

I put this on the Pool board regarding the 'exile' of The Sun up there.

No excuse for the Sun and what they wrote, who no doubt iced the cake...but where did the cake come from? they were fed some stories from SYP spokesman Paul Middup and this bloke Sir (yes, he got a bloody knighthood following it! ) Irvine Patnick

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...?utm_hp_ref=uk

My point here is, that it is now time to ask the mouthpieces Middup & Patnick, who told them?, and keep asking down the line, at the end of it we'll find a very small number of faceless scrotes in an office...or boardroom! who actually used the words we all read back then. McKenzie and the other 2 sanctioned what was printed but there are other arseholes who should be brought out in the open aswell.

As pointed out by Mick Dennis on SSN 'paper roundup this morning', these two have yet to comment, let alone apologise for their part.

 

[vimhawk]

I was listening to 5Live last night and they were talking about taking the knighthood away from Patnick. One thing they didn't cover is *why* Patnick became the "cheeleader" for the police disinformation. It wasn't just that he provided the original story it was that he seemed to follow it up and reinforce on several occasions. That is the part I don't understand. Those defending him were saying that he only put forward the information provided by the police, which as we know was fabricated (to say the least) and why should he have questioned it. I get that part, there is some merit to it, but then I don't understand why he perpetuated it, followed it up and made no attempt to reverse his position when it began to be known that his position was based on very dodgy ground. I'm actually very down on conspiracies and think that 9 out of 10 of them (probably more) are just ludicrous, until you find a conspiracy that certainly happened. I think it is then worth pursuing how far the conspiracy actually went. Was Patnick "encouraged by others" to continue to push this rubbish? Surely if his defence is to be accepted then he only need to have made the initial statements. Anyway, anyone know more about this character? Someone on the radio said that he wasn't even the MP for the area Hillsborough is in... is this true? I know he was a Sheffield MP but if not for the local area then why did he get involved at all?

There are also people thinking that now the truth is out, that will be the end of it. I disagree. Firstly I think there is more to be learned about what happened and secondly there should be prosecutions where possible. I am most firmly not in the camp that says "these people are old now, let them be" because the people that died didn't get a chance to be old, and also there should be no statute of limitations on doing something so horribly wrong.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

There's no way that this stops at a Police Chief or one MP, for me.
There are far too many people involved and too much deceit for it to come from that level.

Too many apologies and not enough action at the moment, I'm afraid.
Everyone's sorry, but nobody's responsible.

 

[SpursDisciple]

There's no way that this stops at a Police Chief or one MP, for me.
There are far too many people involved and too much deceit for it to come from that level.

Too many apologies and not enough action at the moment, I'm afraid.
Everyone's sorry, but nobody's responsible.

Agree. The big question for me is how much the Govt of the day knew about the cover-up. If they were involved, the last few days media interest will be the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Spurf]

We do know that Police methods that had previously only been used in the 'colonies' had been introduced into Britain by the Thatcher gov. Up until then it had been thought that the authorities would not get away with it in the 'Home Country'. The chances are the Police had received political directives. Many of these methods are now standard.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

We do know that Police methods that had previously only been used in the 'colonies' had been introduced into Britain by the Thatcher gov. Up until then it had been thought that the authorities would not get away with it in the 'Home Country'. The chances are the Police had received political directives. Many of these methods are now standard.

There were certainly attempts to cover up their baton-happy actions during the Miner's Strike, whilst the BBC got into hot water with the government when they aired a piece of footage of a policeman smashing the windscreen of a car as they were breaking up a new age travellers camp with no provocation or risk to him or any of the other officers, and were banned from showing that piece of footage ever again.

These days, as demonstrated by the aftermath of Jean Charles de Menezes and Ian Tomlinson, whilst the police will try to cover up their actions (in these cases, it's called First Degree Murder), the media won't let them get away with it, nor do the government try to prevent the facts being reported. The courts still let them off, of course...

 

[Page_Moss_Kopite]

The thing about the Hillsbrough fallout is, whilst people say it was wrong to shift all the blame onto the Liverpool fans, they have no problem shifting all the blame onto South Yorkshire Police - and that's before some of the more ridiculous conspiracy theories that have done the rounds over the years.

Several of the things that happened on the day could have been avoided - the coach that arrived ten minutes after kick-off causing the crush outside the ground, fans without valid tickets forcing their way in (as covered in this eyewitness account) - but they did happen, and South Yorkshire Police didn't know how to handle it. If the coach arrived half an hour earlier, there wouldn't have been the crush and they wouldn't have lost control of the situation outside that led to what happened inside.

If you read the Taylor report or yesterdays findings by the independent panel you will see that it wasn't just one coach that arrived late it was a convoy of coaches and cars that were caught up in unannounced roadworks on the M62 in west Yorkshire on the day, the police were aware of the roadworks causing tailbacks but never warned those going to the game by road of the delays, in the end they gave an escort down the motorway to Sheffield to the many stranded Liverpool supporters.

All it took was for WYP and the FA to agree delay the start of the match to suit the situation(no live schedule for tv in those day to follow), but they never bothered their arses to do so.

As for 'fans without valid tickets forcing their way in', never happened and was part of the lies and cover up, and your final sentence that 1 coach(70 seat capacity)caused the crush outside is just not possible or true.

The fact is Chief Inspector Duckenfield gave the order to open the gate in Leppings Lane which led to the crush on the terraces.

This is not an argument just a statement of facts from the Taylor Report and from the HIP findings.

 

[District Line]

If Nazi war criminals in their 90s can be prosecuted then why can't Thatcher?

 

[Hash.]

Sir_Red
Senior Member



Achievements:


Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
3,202
Points
13,362
Level
50
Post Thanks / Like
Rep Power
22

Originally Posted by humanbeingincroydon
She won't testify anyway - she's senile these days so she it's highly unlikely she'd be called as a witness, let alone charged.

The thing about the Hillsbrough fallout is, whilst people say it was wrong to shift all the blame onto the Liverpool fans, they have no problem shifting all the blame onto South Yorkshire Police - and that's before some of the more ridiculous conspiracy theories that have done the rounds over the years.

The fact is that Leppings Lane was an disaster waiting to happen, indeed it very nearly happened to Spurs in '83, but as usually happens in cases like this the disaster has to happen before anyone actually does something about it (the same can be said for the idea of carrying enough lifeboats for all the passengers only after the Titanic sank to give another example)

Several of the things that happened on the day could have been avoided - the coach that arrived ten minutes after kick-off causing the crush outside the ground, fans without valid tickets forcing their way in (as covered in this eyewitness account) - but they did happen, and South Yorkshire Police didn't know how to handle it. If the coach arrived half an hour earlier, there wouldn't have been the crush and they wouldn't have lost control of the situation outside that led to what happened inside.
HBC it was that the Police then tried to cover it up and blame hooliganism (which the Sun lapped up) that makes them the scum. If they had admitted their failings at the get go, along with an inquiry into the infrastructure too, then those poor families wouldnt have had to suffer 23 years of insult heaped on to their injuries

had ****all to do with anything as the match was called off at 15;06

the crush was well under way