They shouldnt be in the job if they cant tell the difference between hooliganism and a disaster. They battered supporters for breaking up hordings to make stretchers, they stood by and watch people die and even charged them with horses to try and get them back in the enclosure. There was zero trouble and the only violence was started by the police who were utterly clueless from start to finish.
Queens, I totally agree with the rest of your post but England fans have a dreadful reputation abroad for one reason and one reason only: because they ran amok time and time again. Of course its a shame because the majority of England fans are decent, top blokes but a sizeable minority destroyed it for everyone.
In my own experience, I've had experiences with the police that were frustrating, but never really bad. And I have had many very positive encounters with them, all over the country. So as bad as your personal encounters may have been, they are NOT reflected for everyone else. So I'm sorry, but I still think you are being selectively extreme in your statements, which do not reflect my reality.
I have been grateful of the police when its kicked off and they were there to break it up, I have also seen them not handling situations at a ground, I guess I am saying they didnt start the trouble and is every Liverpool fan there totally innocent. So who's to blame for killing.
Whatever you think of the Police there are good and bad in every sector of society. In the 1980s in particular, the Police were reflecting the image of the country's leadership. Thatcher had used them cynically to destroy the miner's strike and who could forget the scenes that they created and the stories of them baiting the miners with comments of the overtime they were earning. Then they blamed the miners for the violence which they had deliberately instigated. Football fans were treated to similar 'hostile' management tactics from the Police and many of the problems at the grounds emanated from such policing tactics which culminated in what happened at Hillsborough. It has to be said that although the police made the error of opening the gate without the organisation to deal with what followed, by far the biggest 'crime' was their cynical 'cover-up' and malicious lying to the press to deflect blame for their own incompetence. As usual, the massive time that has passed since the event will make prosecutions difficult, but I believe all the 'senior' officers who systematically altered statements for the original inquest should be prosecuted for 'Perverting the course of justice', that should be the minimum justice given to the families...
You're right about the reputation of English fans - past reputation, I think, now that the authorities act to keep the troublemakers at home before overseas matches. On a domestic level, a small element of the Liverpool fans acted in the same way. Four years before Hillsborough, this element rampaged at the Heysel Stadium leading to 33 Juventus fans dead (and 6 Liverpool). I always thought the relationship between the Liverpool fans and the Police was worse than with any other club. In the 80's, away fans usually had some banter with the police, but I remember watching Liverpool fans spitting at Police every time the coppers had their backs turned. There was no love lost on either side, and I wonder now whether the lack of action by Police at Hillsborough wasn't partly a reflection of this, and ultimately led to the tragedy of young lives being lost.
Things haven't changed there mate. It seems that they can't differentiate between a drunk newspaper vendor and a G20 protester either, re. Ian Tomlinson. After smacking him to the ground not one of the Police assisted him. They also had the audacity to blame protesters for his death, in saying that they impeded ambulance crews treating him. There was also a cover-up by the Police in their efforts to get PC Simon Harwood acquitted. Of course this is on a much smaller scale but it is the same practise carried out twenty odd years later. Nothing has changed.
Harwood was a thug and had a history of violence, which resulted from him resigning from the Met (with a pension, of course) after a road rage incident. The scandal is that later, the Met had him back again, which eventually resulted in Ian Tomlinson losing his life
Sadly, and too often, the real story of what happens never gets aired because the Police pay up and always do not admit liability...
One of the interesting things if there are prosecutions as a result of the latest Hillsborough report (and I think there will be), is the extent to which individual officers can lay off some blame onto the lawyers for the force, since statements were apparently doctored "on legal advice". If police and lawyers are prosecuted alike, there could be a helluva cat fight between defendants.
I've only had one bad football experience and that was at Leeds station, coming back from Barnsley. Was going up the stairs when Man City fans were coming down with police. The police pushed, shoved and bundled me on to a train to Manchester despite me saying I wanted to go in the opposite direction. For Hillsborough I blame lack of stewarding before fans got into the stadium. What happened in the stadium could have been prevented.
I totally agree with what you say Swords. We (England fans) were always our own worse enemies, so we can't complain too loudly when the dog turns round and bites us on the arse. It's sad to think that the current generation of English fans who travel abroad and experience unwanted violence against them from foreign hooligans and police are ultimately paying the penalty for my transgressions.
Glad to hear you aren't yet another of those good for nothing benefit scroungers and have a French degree. French universities do have an excellent reputation. What's your degree in?
South Yorkshire Police has just reported itself to the Police Complaints Commission..... English fans reputation was deservedly crap in the 80s. The anti English backlash from Heysel was still going on when I moved to Milan 2 years later in 88. The English fans at Italia 90 were treated like cattle, particularly in Sardinia where they played the group games. It was almost an incitement to kick off, but thankfully nothing did (well not big time), because many of the Carabinieri were 19 year old conscripts carrying automatic weapons. Heysel is far from forgotten by the Juventini. When they played Liverpool in Europe in 2005 or so the Kop rolled out a banner saying 'friendship' in Italian. Most of the Juve fans turned their backs. But contrast this with the response in San Siro the week after Hillsborough. A minutes silence was turned into 70,000 voices, led by the AC Milan Ultras of the Brigate Rossonere (foreign member, one sb_73,), singing a word perfect You'll Never Walk Alone, in English. Incredibly moving.
No comment Swords. All I will say is that when you are young you can do some very silly things. Now I am an angel........most of the time
The semi final against Germany in Turin was my very first England away game. Got a ticket from a tout for £50 and couldn't believe the atmosphere. Yep we were treated like trash but we didn't help ourselves. I remember the big battle at a campsite the night before the game when Italy got knocked out and all the Juve ultras came down and kicked it off. The police stood back and watched, then shot at us with rubber bullets after (I've still got one in my loft somewhere). I still remember some England fans making petrol bombs before it happened 'just incase'....and they used them. Pure madness but for young lad in his early 20's they were exciting times.
The wall round the corner from where I lived had the following (based on the RAI's daily reading of foreign temperatures back in the day): "Temperature minime dall'estero: Bruxelles meno 38. Grazie Liverpool" They really hated Juventus but that was way over the top.
Well, that's at least 2 stadiums we've been in at the same time Staines. That wasn't special policing for the Brits though, it was quite frequent to wander out of the bar next to San Siro after a couple of post match beers into a fog of tear gas. Which of course meant we had to go back in for another couple of beers. At other times it was quite mellow. The level of dope smoking during games in those days was sensational in certain parts of the stadium.
Doesn't it hurt when you sit down? I'm sure it would be a simple procedure to remove it these days........ ;-)
