Hillsborough 15th April 1989 Where were you ?

JWM, I respect your comments regarding this topic and of course we need to put allegiances to one side, which I was why I did not condone just the 'Tory' party but also previous incumbents of government.

With regards to my "speculation" beyond beyond the pale, it is not entirely down to speculation. There was a rush of some kind to enter the ground though I will accept not on the scale reported by OB. To that end I stand my the comment. As I said, it was not an anti LFC remark, it could so have easily been any set of supporters. I could easily have been Norwich fans (as the Holte End was not much better than the Leppings Lane end was at Sheffield) if the M6 had caused the typical horrific delays that is frequently does.

Football fans are football fans, they are pumped up on the occasion and thought of missing any of it is always likely to lead to rash actions or decision making. Getting in the ground to not miss the game became the focus of some, sadly making an already bad situation a little worse.

 

Fairplay Thai

 

Completely agree with Thai and Redruth on this, and sorry JWM but I fear your viewpoint on the issue is far too simplistic and in my opinion there is absolutely no way that anyone can say that not a single Liverpool fan can be responsible in part for what happened that day. Are you aware of the reputation Liverpool fans had back then in the 80's? It is a fact that they were notorious for turning up to matches in numbers far greater than the ticket allocation, and it is also a fact that coachloads of travelling Liverpool fans back then were not permitted to stop at motorway services en route to games because of the trouble they had been responsible for. These are actual facts, not opinions and some of my colleagues were involved football matches back in those days have told me plenty of stories about the behaviour and reputation of Liverpool fans from back then and even since. It can be argued that with this in mind the police and emergancy services should have been better prepared, but what happened was unprecedented and nobody could have expected what happened to occur. Also it was a completely different world back then, the police were instructed to concentrate on crowd control rather than crowd safety and it really is impossible trying to empathise with the situation that faced the cops on that day as it was all kicking off in a matter of minutes.

I agree that Chippy's comments yesterday came across as a bit harsh and the timing of them wasn't right on a day like yesterday, but I don't understand how they can be taken as “beyond contempt” or Thai’s "beyond the pale" and cause quite as much offence as they have. I work for the Met Police and I personally find it offensive that the police are being called "total scumbags" and being blamed for everything that happened on that day. If people really do believe that as the gospel truth and that the police somehow took some kind of satisfaction from what happened then they are obviously clueless and need to take into context the climate of the 1980's when it came to football hooliganism before they can comment on something like this. Clearly massive mistakes were made on that day by all the emergency services, and there is absolutely no excuse for the tampering of evidence to shift the blame entirely on to the fans for what happened. I agree that this is disgusting, totally wrong and anyone guilty of doing such a thing should be punished accordingly. However my personal opinion of the situation is that the truth lies somewhere in between what we heard yesterday and the stories that came out in the weeks, months and years that followed it. Yesterday's findings are a far truer reflection of the truth than have been reported up until now, that is without question but I still have trouble accepting that not a single Liverpool fan can shoulder any of the responsibility at all because I don't think that's right.

The biggest tragedy is that those poor unfortunate souls who lost their lives were absolutely 100% the innocent ones, and had the police been given better instructions and ambulance services done their jobs better on the day many of those lives would have been saved. I will also say that it was a disaster waiting to happen, and had it not happened that day it would have done sooner or later, and thankfully we have learned from the mistakes and nothing like it should ever occur on these shores ever again.

I personally won't be changing my opinion on David Cameron on the back for his speech yesterday, yes of course he said all the right things (which he should do with such a PR machine behind him) and his apology was indeed admirable. However the cynic in me couldn't help viewing it as his big opportunity to earn some support of the Merseyside electorate (particularly the new generation) which has notoriously been left-leaning and vehemently anti-Tory in these difficult times for both his and his party's dwindling support across the UK. Also a huge dig at the police is perfect timing for the Tories in these days of austerity measures and slashing public sector funding. Andy Burnham should get more credit for commissioning the report in the first place, this is clearly a subject matter very personal to him so he should be applauded for being the weight behind this campaign rather than Cameron who has jumped on the back of it. I also have trouble accepting the report's views that Thatcher's lot were completely exonerated as well, really? I await an apology from her with bated breath, however it clearly won't ever happen.]

Once again I'd like to offer my condolences and sympathy to all those who lost someone that dreadful, tragic day. It was truly and awful thing that nobody would ever have wanted to happen, or wish on anybody, but I hear comments now that make me think people actually believe the police wanted this to happen, it was 100% their fault and that they took some kind of satisfaction out of it which to me is also completely and utterly wrong and to me offensive.

Apologies to anyone I may offend with this post, it is certainly not my intention at all but this is a forum for debate and this is my opinion.

 

In terms of what happened that day, what i can't get my head round is why did they not delay the kick off if there were 000's of fans outside the ground who couldn't get in? it beggars belief really. It could have relieved some of the crush and allow for the fans with tickets to get in. I guess the police panicked.

i also tend to agree to some extent with tony, thai in terms of the 'pool fans (again it could have been any team who has a minority). It doesn't however excuse treating all of them as hooligans or cattle, which seemed to be the case in those days.

 

Spot on mate.
At Villa Park that day, we ended up afterwards among Everton fans, sorry, some Everton fans. Their reaction was "great, I hope the red scum are all dead". By the time we had got home, the late night news had the exact same Evertonians getting off a coach but their attitude had changed to "tragic, in it together".
I've met Liverpool supporters who described Heysel as "bad bricklaying".
As had been said, and I don't believe in fate, it seems as though the dice had already been rolled that day. Everything was wrong. Wrong end, wrong arrangements, traffic delays, thousands without tickets.
I had my two sons with me at Villa Park and I stared at them all the way home feeling lucky. So many parents were so unlucky that day and they will never get over it. I don't have to live with what happened that day and I'm sure there are so many people, police, fans and stewards who wish they had done something different that day.

 

This would have been a good article if you hadn't let your own petty political ideaology get in the way.

 

Nothing petty about it, I just ****ing hate Tories and pretty much everything they stand for

 

Its a brilliant article not just a good one. And the political ideology is fairly factual in this case.

 

Hardly!

Cameron would have been damned if he hadn't reopened the Hillsborough enquiry and apologised as head of the Government and now he is being accused of jumping on the bandwagon! I find cheap political point scoring over such a horrible human tragedy very distasteful but then again what more can you expect from the lefty brigade. The TUC conference this week tells you all you need to know about these swivel eyed nutters!

 

That's enough from both sides of the political fence! This isn't about politics, this is about innocent people going to a football match and never going home again!

The released documents have made it very clear where the blame lies, any residual blame is insignificant and irrelevent! Let's for goodness sake show some respect and decorum here!

I'm very sorry for anybody having to read these arguments! Let's now stay on topic please!

 

I don't give a stuff about the politics and it's irrelevant!

 

Please accept my sincere apologies Dave I did get a little carried away.

 

can we drop the political aspect of this debate?
the government has switched to labour and then to the coalition now, so they've probably all ballsed it up really

edit - thank you dave

 

Yeah, apologies for bringing politics into it, I accept it's irrelevant but I just got a bit annoyed by some comments praising Cameron and his response because, as JWM said what else is he supposed to say?

I'll stand by the rest of what I said however

 

I've read back over my comments yesterday and as I said it was not meant to offend,
In hind sight the timing of them was probably wrong however my opinion has not altered, I offer only an oppology for the timing of them.

 

Sorry Dave as I probably started it. But it didn't mean to. Was just trying to defend the police as an institution rather than a few dodgy coppers.

 

How can that be anything other than offensive to anyone connected with Liverpool. It took them 23 years to prove that Liverpool fans were not to blame and you come out with that utter drivel on the day the proof comes out. You are total scum.

 

Unfortunately, Liverpool's reputation preceeded them at the time that's why some people still think that their fans cannot be COMPLETELY exonerated. I admit myself to an immense dislike for Liverpool as a club and their 'supporters', having had first hand experience of their hooliganism. Having said that, I would never wish any harm or ill health on anyone and feel extremely sorry for the families of those that lost their lives. Chippy is not 'scum' at all, I reserve that judgement for a manager, players and supporters of a team in red who refused to condem a blatent racist last season.

 

Dave, hope you're keeping a close eye on this!

 

Why ?? ...