Heysel 30 years on

I said this the other day on another thread. Obviously journalists stand outside of what's considered decent behaviour, but nothing new there.

 

I was there and agree with most of what Hooton says. A group of 8 of us went, five blokes and three girls, from the station I worked at. I was with my then fiancée.

Before the narrative, condolences and regret to those families of the 39. Their deaths were totally unnecessary and sickening.

Like Hooton, I thought the day leading up to it was lovely and happy. One of the blokes with us had been to Rome the year before and couldn't stop commenting on how different it all felt. We were all drinking with some Italians at some café when a coach of Juve fans went past a they were waving knives out of the windows. That was the first trouble I saw. On the tram on the way to ground we were attacked by a gang of juve fans, one of whom threw a bar though the open door and split the hed open of some old Belgian woman travelling home. My ex was first-aider and saw to her. When the ambulance and police came they said there had been trouble from both sets of fans for a couple of hours. Didn't realise until then.

So, because of that we got there later than planned. As we approached the stadium there was one wire perimeter fence to hve your tickets checked It was pulled down round most of the ground. The actual turnstile at the gate was open unmanned, but there was a huge whole next to it anyway. Then we thought we heard a cannon go off.

we squeezed in - and hundreds seemed to be trying to get out. We lost contact with the rest of the group (found out later they'd got out asap), but somehow, after a 20 minute struggle, I dragged us both to an open space behind the goal, littered with broken bottles, fireworks, bricks and strewn with flattened chicken wire. We were in between the two setsof fans, all staring bewildered at us, and one riot policeman and a dog.

After the match it wasn't until we were on the cattle trucks home someone with a radio said there was 16 people dead (obviously that figure rose). No-one knew how. On the jetfoil home we met some lads from Harrogate who were Leeds supporters. They were only the second set of non-Liverpool supporters wed met. I don't buy the 'It wasn't Liverpool supporters' theory, and I never will.

Only when I got back did I find out the full story. I didn't phone my family until we got back to Victoria, and they were scared witless because the others got back 12 hours earlier and said they' lost us in the ground. I then saw pictures of some Liverpool fans still charging into the Italians even after the wall collapsed. Sure, like myself I suspect they had no idea there were people dead and dying fleeing the two sets of maniacs in the middle, but if they were in the ground when the wall collapsed they should have damn well know something bad had happened.

Never been to a match on the continent since, for either Liverpool or England. Again, RIP the 39.

 

No one would argue that the venue wasn't fit for purpose, however that does not excuse the actions of some. Plenty of other games had run smoothly without incident in that stadium before.

I don't buy either that it was each of two and half dozen of the other. I find that difficult to accept when 39 of one fan base lost their lives and 0 of another did. From reading lots of accounts of what actually happened that night, the only accounts that come to that conclusion are Liverpool accounts. I've not read 1 neutral account that claims both sets of supporters where equally to blame.

This is not me saying Juventus fans where completely blameless, as I know plenty got involved, I just don't believe it is fair to blame both sets of supporters equally. Liverpool should accept most of the blame, and those making excuses for their supporters actions should really be ashamed of themselves.

Expecting Juventus supporters to ever forgive, is like expecting Liverpool supporters to forgive those responsible for what went on 4 years later.

There are some things you just can't forgive!

 

So Horse's Head, why does this country sell Japanese and German goods, some things that were more evil have been forgiven.

You're just a hater pure and simple.

 

They are still bringing runaway Nazis in South America to justice to this day. So those responsible have not been forgiven.

 

Every club playing in Europe in the 70s and 80s had fans that shamed them. We had fans that trashed parts of Holland in 1974. It so sickened our greatest ever boss, Bill Nicholson, that he quit.
Football hooligans were scaring the **** out of football fans in the 1980s and the authorities responses (here and in Europe) was to
a) let the old bill beat the living crap out of ALL fans regardless if they were hooligans or not
And
b) cage us up and keep us in **** stadiums with little or no safety.

The 3 biggest football disasters in my life time were Hysel, Bradford and Hillsborough....all were preventable if the authorities had treated us with respect rather than like cattle.

None of this justifies the violence of the Liverpool fans who behaved like hooligans but the simple fact is that if a safe stadium had been used it would simply have been another footnote in the history of English football hooligans.

Final point...any fan making digs at liverpool about Hysel or Hillsborough is a piece of ****.

As a spurs fan it is not lost on me if things had been slightly different we would be talking of Feyenoord 1974 instead of Heysel 1985 and Hillsborough 1981 instead of 1989.
(A similar crush happened to spurs fans for the same reasons at the same end in the 81 semi final v wolves...luckily for us the gates were unlocked)

Liverpool hooligans and incompetent officials were convicted re Heysel. .. hopefully some time soon the incompetent lying sack of ****s responsible for Hillsborough will be convicted too.

No one should die at a football match...the Heysel 39 deserve to be remembered without cheap digs being thrown around at all Liverpool fans

 

That could easily be said about Hillsborough before the truth started to come out.

 

It's a simple point of geometry and mathematics - two-thirds of the end was Liverpool, one-third Juve. The panic of the overwhelming majority of fans of both sides who were trying to get out was felt on both sides. That missing breeze block I referred to was pushed outward from the inside, not inwards: fans were trying to get away from both sets. I'm convinced to this day that had any walls collapsed on our side there would have been similar, if not more casualties. Again, I refer to the mathematics and the geometry.

Who started it in the ground? I simply don't know, as I wasn't in there when that happened. I suspect the mathematics and the geometry I keep mentioning would suggest it was Liverpool fans trying to 'take' the end. Be honest, that happened a lot in the 70's and 80's, but I do know for a fact that bottles of urine were lobbed at the Liverpool fans - an Italian practice the Roma fans had done the year before and still do nowadays (they did it to your fans too at Roma a few years back, who reacted by charging the Italians but were held back by a PROPER dividing fence (Perspex) and huge police numbers.

As for a neutral perspective, I read the account of the Spurs fan in that Telegraph article, and I have one question: he says he was in the neutral end and all the missiles were coming from one direction, but then refers to the crumbling stadium around him and how the fans had kicked off lumps of concrete - for what reason? Even documentaries I've seen on the subject show BOTH sets of fans lobbing things objects at each other before the main charges went in one direction.

Cause or effect? NOTHING excuses what happened next, and as I stated, I truly believe that some Liverpool fans had made their mind up as soon as they got into the ground to 'take' that end. When I was a lad, nine years before at Wolves on the last day of the season, I remember my dad trying to get us out of ground when our fans did the same thing at the big end there ('76). There was no 'rioting', per se, that night, but if you were around in the 70's and 80's you'd remember that ALL big clubs did that on a regular basis, which is not an attempt at an excuse, but an explanation. All said though, if you watch those documentaries you'll see that it was at most a total of @ 100 fans from both sets (if that) who caused all the trouble: the overwhelming majority of fans were running away in all directions to get away.

So, no excuses or half-hearted apologies, but if you're on here just to make some capital can I suggest you join like-minded pondlife on the General Chat board who, for the second year running, have started an opportunistic thread berating the 'fact' that Liverpool fans have tried to ignore the anniversary of Heysel, though we apparently revel in the memory of Hillsborough: don't bother trying to point out that there is always a thread on the anniversary here, or that the club holds a service and always have done, or that there is commemorative plaque at Anfield as well as the Hillsborough one, as you'll just be met with a wall of bile. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are genuine in your points, but when your fans continually turn up at occasions of Hillsborough commemorations such as the first game after the published findings of the Enquiry Group and chant 'Justice, for the 39', then you'll appreciate the scepticism that some of you are just in this for reasons more to do with tribalism than altruism.

 

Can I just refer you to the prosecutions of officials and fans that happened after heysel ?

 

He was wanting blindfolds and firing squads at dawn.

 

Lets not forget Britain and the US gave new identities and jobs to Nazi mass murders who had previously experimented on people and killed many using them as slaves.

 

Including Werner Von Braun, the rocket scientist behind Apollo who designed the Saturn V.

 

Instead of us pandering to his obvious hatred and need for Attention 30 years on, just ignore the beaut.
You were there, you gave your honest opinion on what happened yet he's still not satisfied.

Its like accusing him of being responsible for the death of the palace fan running away from supporters of his own club in the semi final, I wouldn't hold all utd supporters responsible for that, but the ghost of the dead horse still wants his pound of flesh 30yrs down the line even though as you say the gobshites and the club were punished.

 

I've been following the thread and tbf KS made one post and responded once (the second was nothing more than a reasonable response to someone else). Donga Darko gave him the benefit of the doubt with his response. KS hasnt posted since so there's nothing to pander to. Not really got a view on this except to say I remember events as they unfolded on TV at the time, but know little else other than the basic facts.

Only thing I'd add is hindsight can only help us to learn for the future, not fix the past. Often we make the mistake of judging things in a different era based on what we consider to be the norm today, but it doesnt work like that. Sometimes things happen bcos they reflect the nature of the time they occurred. We learn from them and improve and then years later ppl find it hard to imagine or relate to the behaviour or practises of ppl at that time....except those that lived through them.

 

Just one last thing on that point, I may speak for myself but I have never been anything but understanding and forgiving for the action of Duckenfield opening that gate. He was an incompetent, barely briefed and unfamiliar officer compared to the man who'd overseen the year before and, despite being continually updated as to the situation of thousands of late-running fans due to roadworks and suchlike, he was completely unprepared to do what was necessary. It's a perfect storm that you'll usually find at the root cause of transport and crowd control disasters.

What happened next, from the palpably dishonest lie about gates being broken down, cctv tapes being stolen, press briefings about drunken, ticketless fans and so forth... that's hard to 'forgive'. The difference with Heysel is that even a Mickey Mouse Eurotrash country like Belgium at least ensured justice was pursued against officials and fans. It's up to each individual Italian as to whether they forgive, and I truly respect their decision (though had that iron bar I referred to seriously injured my fiancée or my friends I may have found it harder to forgive Juve fans than I have now - I know mt cousin who was in Rome in '84 has never forgiven the Roma fans or the Italian police). But they cannot have the same grievance that we had over Hillsborough that justice was subverted and covered-up.

 

Actually some of those 39 were neutrals, as it was in the neutral section of the ground where the disaster occurred. Having read several neutral accounts of the disaster, the only thing that prevented the Juventus fans killing any Liverpool fans was the fact that the majority of the hardcore Juve fans were at the other end of the stadium, properly segregated.

The Juve fans at the other end of the ground had a running battle with riot police up and down the side of the pitch trying to get at the Liverpool fans. In fact the official report into the tragedy records that Juventus fans were the first to start rioting, which incited the Liverpool fans. The only thing that prevented the incident being a far worse tragedy with more deaths and injuries was that in the case of the Juve fans, the police had the entire length of the stadium to control the charging fans, rather than one poorly maintained chain link fence.

 

Very reasoned and impartial post Swarbs.

 

I'm afraid that was what it was.

 

This ^

 

You have to question why someone who wasn't there ''doesn't buy .... it was each of two and half dozen of the other''. Especially when there's first hand evidence on here from people who were there and enough videos and photographs from before the game [up to when the real tragedy happened] to prove it.

As pointed out above, those responsible for Heysel were caught and punished you can't ask for more than that for the guilty. The shame on the club will never go away and once again I express regret for our fans part, and condolences to families who lost their dear ones. Hillsborough is different because those responsible, not only passively wouldn't face up to what they did but actively denied it, actively put the blame elsewhere and actively did everything they could to stay in the shadows. There's a huge difference between saying 'it wasn't me' to 'it was them' - the first is an understandable act of the cowardly, the second is an unforgiveable act by anyone. It's that which separates the two tragedies in my view. But at the end of the day it was all needless loss of life - RIP 96 ....... RIP 39