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Grand Prix thread Heineken Grande Prêmio De São Paulo 2021

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by ched999uk, Nov 11, 2021.

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Who will win the Real Race not the 30 min one!!!

Poll closed Nov 13, 2021.
  1. Lewis Hamilton

    37.5%
  2. Max Verstappen

    43.8%
  3. Sergio Perez

    6.3%
  4. Valtteri Bottas

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Lando Norris

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Daniel Ricciardo

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Pierre Gasly

    6.3%
  8. Charles Leclerc

    6.3%
  9. Carlos Sainz

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Any Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. BrightLampShade

    BrightLampShade Well-Known Member
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    The stewards from Brazil have really put the Qatar stewards in an awkward position here.
    You can't push a incident on live sport watched by millions under a rug.
     
    #441
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  2. Big Ern

    Big Ern Lord, Master, Guru & Emperor

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    please log in to view this image
     
    #442
  3. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Not really....penalties are rarely consistent anyway, and lot of it can be open to interpretation anyway.

    I mean, in some ways this one is similar to Silverstone in that Hamilton was going in deep, missed the apex, under steered and was going to run wide. The difference being Hamilton got the hell out of the way in Brazil, where as Max continued to head towards the racing line at Silverstone, ending in a collision. That one resulted in a 10 second penalty, though ultimately having no affect his finishing position.

    So maybe contact is the deciding factor, though really it shouldn't I guess.
     
    #443
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  4. Big Ern

    Big Ern Lord, Master, Guru & Emperor

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    Hamilton didn't come close to leaving the circuit at Silverstone though, Verstappen could've easily avoided contact and still kept all 4 wheels within the white line, but chose not to because he prefers to crash than be over-taken.
    That, to me, is what should be the deciding factor.
     
    #444
  5. Justjazz

    Justjazz Well-Known Member

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    I do think Verstappen can't help himself. He has to put his elbows out and his foot down when having his position threatened. This is OK, except he takes it too far because of who he is. I won't call it a red mist just poor judgement. The truth is, unless he modifies his behaviour he won't be one of the greats albeit he has the talent.
    This next theory I like, he knows George is coming in the next two seasons, along with a few others, and he is scared his opportunity will be lost. There is an air of desperation in his driving.
     
    #445
  6. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    I don't think he's scared. Max seems extremely confident and extremely calm outside of the heat of the moment. I think he has every faith in his own ability, sometimes a little too much.
     
    #446
  7. Big Ern

    Big Ern Lord, Master, Guru & Emperor

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    Maybe the fear of punishment for being overtaken is greater than the fear of crashing.
     
    #447
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  8. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    There is definitely something in that going back.
     
    #448
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  9. Mr.B

    Mr.B Well-Known Member

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    I’ve just been watching his onboard, and I tend to agree – in the heat of the moment he doesn’t consider what’s acceptable. He only cares about either getting in front or staying in front. Is that any different from other drivers? I don’t know.

    But looking at that onboard, he spent most of the straight looking at Hamilton in his mirror, so he knew where Lewis was. When they were going into the corner, he didn’t turn into Hamilton, but he certainly didn’t try to get round the corner as tightly as he could have. He was nearer the racing line so presumably should have had the grippier part of the track, but went more-or-less straight on, whereas Lewis was able to turn in even though he was on a less grippy line. Even mid-corner, Max seems to be looking right (at Lewis) rather than looking at the apex. Is that because he was trying to avoid Lewis? Maybe, but I tend to think it’s because he was trying to run them both wide.

    OK, so that’s in the heat of battle, and maybe they all do it. But I think the issue with Max is that he knows that his attitude has gained him a reputation for hard/questionable racing. He knows that reputation is useful on track, and is probably worth a few points to him over the course of a season. I also suspect he believes he’s the best out there, and if others are not at his standard they shouldn’t be getting in his way. And I suspect he also simply enjoys having that reputation.

    So in the heat of the moment, his only thought is to get ahead or stay ahead, and he has no qualms about how he does it. And after the event, he probably has nobody telling him "mate, that was a bit strong". The people around him just reinforce his perception that what he does is acceptable. And he enjoys his reputation. With all those factors, why would he ever change?

    He’s a hell a driver, but I suspect he’ll always be a tool.
     
    #449
  10. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

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    Well said!
     
    #450

  11. moreinjuredthanowen

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    The onboard is clear that he's got significant lock on the steering and he's coming from inside and just washes out and was always going to wash out.

    Its called racing. Hamilton has had a go round the outside and sees it coming and also wouldn't put his car there unless there was an out and ended up using it.

    Schumacher hitting Villeneuve it aint.

    I offer exhibit a



    hamilton has inside, just doesn't turn his steering any more and gives rosberg no room at all. Any issue here? nope. rosberg chose to be out there trying for an overtake and lost out.

    Clearly neither driver here turned their wheel or straightened their cars up to push their opponent off. both knew where their opponent were.

    Exhibit B



    clearly rosberg bashes into hamilton, and both hit each other twice in two corners. Again anyhting like verstappen v hamilton?



    finally the reason why we do not want this sillyness IMO. more of this action please. it is exciting



    yes verstappen is a dangerous git but theres plenty of times you see hamilton hitting folk and weaving at verstappen in these clips.

    let them race. nobody hit anyone in brazil ffs.
     
    #451
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  12. Big Ern

    Big Ern Lord, Master, Guru & Emperor

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    The only reason that 'nobody hit anyone' in Brazil is because Hamilton drove 5 metres off track to avoid it.
    It's not an accident, he didn't get his braking wrong, this is one of the best F1 drivers trying to win a WDC by pretending to get it wrong and take out his opponent. That's banger racing, not F1.
     
    #452
  13. moreinjuredthanowen

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    So you.ignored the video of Hamilton and rosberg slapping off each other etc?

    Let them race!
     
    #453
  14. Mr.B

    Mr.B Well-Known Member

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    Everyone here wants to let them race.

    There are just different views on what's acceptable.
     
    #454
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  15. El_Bando

    El_Bando Can't remember, where was I?
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    There is just a load of hypocrisy on both sides
     
    #455
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  16. Big Ern

    Big Ern Lord, Master, Guru & Emperor

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    There always is, we are human after all.
     
    #456
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  17. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    It's because the line of what's acceptable is so fluid in the sport, then throw on top ones own personal bias, and it becomes even more muddy.

    Personally, I think they just may as well drop it at this point. I'd have had another option on it if it looked like Max opened the steering in the corner.
     
    #457
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  18. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    I've been wanting to reply to this all day, but just haven't had chance. Going to try tonight after dinner.
     
    #458
  19. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    So I exhibit A, you can certainly argue that Hamilton puts the squeeze on Rosberg, and I do love a good squeeze (ooo matron), but for the most part of that I'm pretty cool with it. There's ample time for Rosberg to concede, though he tries to keep it in and ultimately comes off worse for not getting out of it. I'm sure others will have a different take though.

    Exhibit B. I'm not seeing a real comparison to Brazil here, as in Brazil, Max comes in way too hot, and understeers, forcing both of them to go off track. This incident, and it's how I saw it at the time, Rosberg just decides to not bother taking the corner and just attempts to run Hamilton out of road. You can argue that Rosberg can take whatever line he wants, but it was a bit of a silly move and it wound up biting him. That one just seemed a bit ridiculous to me at the time and still does.

    Exhibit C. (or last video) There's some cracking fighting in that one, with the exception of maybe the Monaco move, that was quite the lunge, but overall, some belting racing.

    Personally, I am fairly firmly in the let them race category, because when penalties get too petty they mostly just deny us actual racing. With the Hamilton/Verstappen incident in Brazil, there was a real possibility that Max could have wound up with a penalty, just with the nature of how it all played out. We've seen them given for much less down the field in the past, and Hamilton was hit with a penalty in similar circumstances at Silverstone. But it wasn't deemed penalty worthy, so on we go, and with a tasty close of the season to look forward to. :)
     
    #459
  20. Justjazz

    Justjazz Well-Known Member

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    I have read all the comments on here too. I haven't commented because I do understand the comment about hard racing. However,if hard racing is to happen it has to be consistent and we know that is not the case. Others have made comment to the penalties dished out.
    The Hamilton/Rosberg was another era and the world has moved on. If hard racing is the conclusion then 10 seconds for Lewis at Silverstone should not have been the outcome but I will not stress that.
    I find myself in agreement with Jolyan Palmer's conclusion on this.
    Also, Max outbraked himself and couldn't hold the corner, if he didn't then shame on him for driving off track.
    Nor do I accept he eased off after being overtaken, he is a racer and would have wanted to get back.

    It now becomes a business decision, 3 pts variation on the WDC and 6 pts on the CC are at stake. There is new evidence, Masi admitted they did not have the video, it clearly shows the relaxation on the steering wheel, for one of the above two reasons. Merc have a case worthy of hearing.

    It is also a defining moment because if the sport conclude no penalty it changes the rules. There is a 2 pm hearing tomorrow. Money and potentially the outcome of the season are at stake, F1's reputation is also at stake. They can't be seen to single out the only black star the sport has in the decision so need to be crystal clear in their conclusion that does not create a slur on the sport.
     
    #460

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