God and football

[gent]

I didn't pray for him, i put my faith in the medical staff involved, and they came through with flying colours. I'm an atheist, i don't pray.

You filthy militant extremist, you're just as bad as the Taliban


Same here, I just hoped the response from the medical staff was timely and effective enough for him to have a chance.

Who knows maybe the cheering crowd during those critical moments could have had a positive effect. I'm not sure what (if any) cognitive processes take place in cases such as Muamba's.

 

[UIR - Kagawa Powa]

Well done in a single post you have shown yourself to be as extreme as a religious fundamentalist. I don't see much difference between this and the hate spewed from fundamentalists.

It's fine if we don't believe in God and religion but show the decency to respect those that do. Most people are good and some are bad but faith in religion or not should not be the determining factor. Arrogant pricks like you make life **** for both sides of the fence.

I have no idea what bullshit you just spouted but please refrain from posting again.

God doesnt exist, anyone with a brain bigger than that of a dead fly should know that but alas humans are as stupid as they are smart. We like to think powerful beings have power over us and influence because it makes our lives that much easier.

Whats better than having no responsibility for ones actions because its gods will?

I show no decency to people who believe in elves and monsters which is in no way different to those who believe in god, jesus, allah or any other bullshit made up entity!

I prefer to believe in the ower of the human race. Everything good and bad you see or will ever witness is the result of humans. Right or wrong, help or hinder, humans are the ones who achieved it.

It is an utter disgrace hat some people try and claim a made up god is the reason for all good.

 

[UIR - Kagawa Powa]

God gave those people the intellect and wisdom to do what they do which helped save Muamba's life, God gave us and them the brain we use .

Erm.......newsflash....he didnt.

Our brains are part of a complex evolution something which your god is incapable of because.....HE DOESNT EXIST.

Its like my trillion dollar bill, its all powerful but because it doesnt exists its only in my head that in can do anything.

 

[UIR - Kagawa Powa]

These days the main perception of God is the Abrahamic God, the One all powerful God who created us for a purpose, so one would pray to such a God, in fact most people's conception of God is one Creator who made them, knows them etc, and so they would naturally pray to that being they believe to be. . As for a fear of death, how is that some of the most fearless people in the face of death have been/are believers in God? God isn't the result of not knowing, it is the result OF KNOWING and a result of the most logical conclusion, unless you expect us to believe us alongside this great universe and planet all happened as a result of chance for no reason by a self process of it's own, guided by factors and chemical equations that were just right that allowed for life to begin on earth, and which is why we are here chatting on a computer! Get real! THAT TAKES A LOT OF FAITH TO BELIEVE IN.

Takes a lot of stupidity.

You need to be gullible aswell, very gullible. Thats what faith is, believing whatever you are told. Its not a good thing, not a good thing at all. Millions have died for it, MILLIONS.

God didnt save a single one.

 

[UIR - Kagawa Powa]

God doesnt exists, god didnt save Muambas life.

Anyone who thinks he did save his life needs to pay a visit to the men and women in our health services who do save lives daily and do work hard to ensure you, me and Muamba can live our lives.

God however, well if he did exist he gave muamba the heart attack and he was just one of the millions of murders this sick evil entity commits each year. If go is real then unfortunately for believers, god is the devil, e is evil.

 

[theHotHead]

I am shocked that we are at page 5 and the debate is still civil. A round of applause to most of you - especially the ones not rising to the bait

I believe the God of the 5 major religions are one and the same, ultimately what I believe is, there is a supreme being who made us and we should all be nice to each other and live good lives, at which point some reward will be bestowed upon us. There are many unanswerable questions, I love it when scholars of the bible try to explain with authority what nobody could possibly know, that is simply their opinion - they do not speak for God.

Some have said religion acts like a sort of placebo, I agree to an extent and because of that if religion gives people peace within who is anyone to tell them what they are doing is wrong ? Miracles DO happen, forget the bogus healing seminars you may or may not have seen, but I know for a FACT that some people have been healed by prayer and believing, people in my own family with a disability have come away from these gatherings cured - inexplicably and unexplainably (is that a word??). Religion seems to be a very personal thing, one unless you experienced what somebody else did you will think they are completely crackers - I would too.

I do not believe we are here today as a consequence of chaos, then a bang then life. I like to think we are here by design. Take a simple thing like cutting your finger, the air makes the blood clot, which seals the wound, which forms a scab that hardens to protect the wound, at the end of the process the scab falls off. Straightforward to describe, but think about how complex a process that is !! Think about how your eye works, your brain, I mean we are complicated beyond belief. I can't prove God exists but, I get comforted knowing he is with me, through good and bad. I'm certainly no angel but I'd like to think I am essentially a good person who goes out of his way to help others when he can.

The absence of proof is neither here or there to me. Man's greed is what corrupts people not religion, man's interpretation of religion is the problem, not the religions themselves. I'm open minded to all things but in a world where people want answers where there are none, I'm happy to go with the flow - I won't deny my belief in God but I certainly can't convince anybody that he exists, its personal.

 

[theHotHead]

UIR - this thread has up until you came along been very civil, don't post your poisonous bile here. If you can't be adult when you put your opinion across DON'T POST HERE !

 

[UIR - Kagawa Powa]

UIR - this thread has up until you came along been very civil, don't post your poisonous bile here. If you can't be adult when you put your opinion across DON'T POST HERE !

Says the one who believes in made up characters from a fairy tale.....

Religious people are not grown up enough to debate the existence of god because when they are questioned they have no answer beyond faith then start trying to undermine those who dare to question them.

Things such as claiming its childish to question god ( humans qustion, religious drones follow ).

Perhaps you need to grow up, smell the coffee and open your eyes. There is a whole world of wonder out their, where things well beyond what your mind can comprehend take place. You dont need faith to see it, you just need to open your eyes.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

That's the thing... you believe "he" did. So try phrasing your sentences in a less absolute manner.

As a concept the (non)existence of god is unprovable. But just because it is not provable in either direction doesn't mean that one position isn't more likely empirically.

Being an atheist doesn't imply absolute certainty, as most people here who are taking cheap shots seem to suggest.

No one's taking cheap shots at atheism. If anything, it's been the otherway around.

For someone who comes across with reasonable views, it surprises me that you believe you have a grasp on the probability of a god's existence. It's a huge question and one that requires belief whether like me, you believe in a God, or like you believing that it's unlikely. Eitherway it's important to show respect to other peoples beliefs, something that doesn't always happen on any side in religion, or absence of.

 

[The Bonstar Wandit]

Says the one who believes in made up characters from a fairy tale.....

Hey there smarty-pants

I'd be obliged if you'd please use your superior intellect to explain to me how the theory of evolution of a species explains the formation of the eye, which is something which performs over a thousand different functions, without any one of which it is useless. Now since evolution favours natural selection for the strength of the species, and it would take millions of years for an eye to evolve, why would such a process persevere with a partially-formed organ that was of no benefit?

Also, would you please explain how evolution permits the change from asexual to sexual reproduction? Since, in theory, it would require a complete transition from asexual, to 2 fully-formed and able to mate sexual beings in a single generation?

And while you're at it, could you please explain to me how you have no problem shouting down the idea of a God, but are perfectly happy to believe in The Big Bang - the idea that something came from nothing. At no other time in the history of the known universe has something come from nothing, it cannot be replicated, yet you believe it. Know what that is? It's faith Making you just as religious, as everyone else.

Let me finish with a twist on your own words, if you will...

Atheistic people are not grown up enough to debate the Big Bang Theory because when they are questioned they have no answer beyond faith then start trying to undermine those who dare to question them.

 

[gent]

No one's taking cheap shots at atheism. If anything, it's been the otherway around.

For someone who comes across with reasonable views, it surprises me that you believe you have a grasp on the probability of a god's existence. It's a huge question and one that requires belief whether like me, you believe in a God, or like you believing that it's unlikely. Eitherway it's important to show respect to other peoples beliefs, something that doesn't always happen on any side in religion, or absence of.

What you are implying is that to any question with 2 possible answers, both answers are equally likely if neither has been absolutely proven thus far to be the right answer.

I don't agree with that.


If you lay out the foundations or terms in which you rate this probability, I see no issue in claiming one answer is more likely and to what degree. In my post that foundation which i explicitly stated was empirical evidence.

I don't think it can be reasonably disputed that a naturalistic explanation fares much better on those terms.

 

[The Bonstar Wandit]

What you are implying is that to any question with 2 possible answers, both answers are equally likely if neither has been absolutely proven thus far to be the right answer.

Talking of likeliness...here's an idea.
You have two choices, one choice has a 0% chance of success, the other is pitched at let's say 100:1. Which would you choose?

You'd choose the 100:1, because at least then you have a chance.

With atheism, you have a 0% chance after death. With religion, you could end up in the wrong one, and some people will tell you that means you're doomed, but there's always a chance there is a God, and you pick the right one, and end up with an afterlife

So surely the smart money is on being religious?

 

[gent]

Atheistic people are not grown up enough to debate the Big Bang Theory because when they are questioned they have no answer beyond faith then start trying to undermine those who dare to question them.

Scientists on many issues admit they don't have the answers yet. But experience has shown that filling in the blanks with "god" for every unknown is unreasonable.

Not long ago even the simplest things such as lightnings were dedicated to supernatural beings. These things could now be easily taught to preschoolers.


And please please try not to degenerate this into an evolution/intelligent design debate. Up to now the discussion was about a general concept of a deity. You can find answers to the "eye" examples from credible naturalists who have actually works published in peer-reviewed journals, unlike the majority of the quack ID proponents.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Why do people still believe in irreducible complexity, even though it was thrown out of court in the US by a Christian judge, after the guy that was pushing it admitted it was on a par with astrology?
If you want to know how the eye evolved, then just google 'Evolution of the eye'.
Even Darwin had this one down over a century ago.
The same applies to the evolution of sexual reproduction.
Even the Vatican accept evolution now.

The Big Band doesn't address what came before it.
It certainly doesn't say that anything came from nothing and it's effects are still perceivable and measurable now.
No faith involved. Sorry.

 

[Jamrag]

In years gone by, I would have found your comments deeply offensive and provocative, but these days I find it quite amusing, particularly the bit about amputees and nutters. I remember in my first year at Uni, during a heated debate about religion this bloke decides to play to the gallery and ripped the Holy Bible....... Asking afterwards why was he not struck down?

However, I feel we have to respect people's faith, eventhough we don't accept them. Even within the Christian faiths there are deep divisions, as a Catholic, I wear the Crucifix with Jesus Christ on it, and have the Statue of Virgin Mary in my house, I have had friends from Evangelical Churches poke fun at Virgin Mary and say Jesus is no longer on the cross etc etc....

So really if you don't believe you don't believe, I have nothing against you as long you let me practice my religion in peace.

Apologies for the last line of my post. I can see how it would be misconstrued when the 'nutters' I was actually referring to were the extremists, not religious people in general

Unsure why the amputee point made you laugh though and would love to hear someone who believes in the power of prayer try to explain it. People claim prayer cures all types of stuff, all the way up to cancer, but never has prayer led to an amputated limb growing back. The day that happens is the day I will start to pray.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Talking of likeliness...here's an idea.
You have two choices, one choice has a 0% chance of success, the other is pitched at let's say 100:1. Which would you choose?

You'd choose the 100:1, because at least then you have a chance.

With atheism, you have a 0% chance after death. With religion, you could end up in the wrong one, and some people will tell you that means you're doomed, but there's always a chance there is a God, and you pick the right one, and end up with an afterlife

So surely the smart money is on being religious?

Pascal's wager? Really?
How do you know that there's not a god that only selects people who are atheists to enter the afterlife?
I'd also argue that you can't choose to believe something, you either do or you don't.

 

[The Bonstar Wandit]

And please please try not to degenerate this into an evolution/intelligent design debate. Up to now the discussion was about a general concept of a deity. You can find answers to the "eye" examples from credible naturalists who have actually works published in peer-reviewed journals, unlike the majority of the quack ID proponents.

My apologies, he just annoyed me with his tone is all. I didn't mean to degenerate this, and I'm aware there are answers to the questions I just wanted to see if he had any knowledge behind his belief or was simply attacking other peoples.

As a Physicist, I'm aware of Red Shift / Blue Shift etc. and a lot of the evidence that supports the idea of a central point for the origin of the Universe - i.e. a Big Bang

I'm not against the idea of that, nor the idea of evolution. I'm just against intollerant people who, rather than thinking for themselves and reasoning with debate simply attack others with "you believe in fairies."

Again, my apologies if I have offended any of you.

 

[gent]

Talking of likeliness...here's an idea.
You have two choices, one choice has a 0% chance of success, the other is pitched at let's say 100:1. Which would you choose?

You'd choose the 100:1, because at least then you have a chance.

With atheism, you have a 0% chance after death. With religion, you could end up in the wrong one, and some people will tell you that means you're doomed, but there's always a chance there is a God, and you pick the right one, and end up with an afterlife

So surely the smart money is on being religious?

Hypothetically if there was a creator you'd think he'd judge individuals' standings on something more meaningful than worship/adoration?

I wouldn't think most believers like to think of god as ... vain?

 

[No Kane No Gain]

What you are implying is that to any question with 2 possible answers, both answers are equally likely if neither has been absolutely proven thus far to be the right answer.

I don't agree with that.


If you lay out the foundations or terms in which you rate this probability, I see no issue in claiming one answer is more likely and to what degree. In my post that foundation which i explicitly stated was empirical evidence.

I don't think it can be reasonably disputed that a naturalistic explanation fares much better on those terms.

That's not what I'm implying. What I am saying is that you don't have enough understanding of the Universe to attmempt to understand the probability of a god or gods existing. Evidence, empirical or not, can't explain anywhere near enough to give a definitive view like that. As such you are choosing to believe.

 

[The Bonstar Wandit]

Pascal's wager? Really?
How do you know that there's not a god that only selects people who are atheists to enter the afterlife?
I'd also argue that you can't choose to believe something, you either do or you don't.

Both very valid points
The irony of a deity who selected only unbelievers to enter an afterlife The idea actually made me laugh!

Belief is something personal, forgive me for attempting to explain it with odds, it was only meant light-heartedly