Given recent threads, fair does big Ron

[st_brendy]

Yes. It's not that our ambition is any less (or at least I hope it isn't, and don't think it is) but those other teams also have the same ambition.

Clubs have gotten a lot smarter. You look at how West Ham have transformed how they play, and how Tottenham is hired Pochettino from us, and what Leicester is doing, etc. We can take pride in being one of the teams to usher in this new-ish era and show how to compete. But that is also why teams are poaching our players and staff. They are using our formula. Clubs more and more are taking a "Moneyball" approach and identifying good, cheap, talent with upside (both players and staff) and looking outside the domestic system.

I'm a little jealous of some of these other sides that are now competing, because they have it easier. When we first burst onto the scene, we were the only ones. So therefore we were picked apart. Fortunately, we also made a lot of money that way. But now the good, cheap, young players are more evenly distributed so teams will not get ransacked as much. But this also presents a challenge to us, as other teams are using their own Black Boxes and doing analysis similar to ours so there is more competition for the kinds of players we target.

So it's not as simple as "We have to aim higher." We are disadvantaged financially, and clubs are catching on to what we did. Compared to 2 years ago, there are a lot less just crazy goofball owners and Boards that have no clue what they are doing. Everyone has upped their game. We have to constantly stay ahead of the curve. And that is not easy.

One thing about Cortese, too. It's easy to be "ambitious" with someone else's money. When you have skin in the game, you need more than ambition-- you need smart planning, you need to be willing to embrace a certain amount of risk, you need patience, and you need to just grind it out and do the dirty work and sometimes just make do with less than you want and sacrifice in the short term for the long term. When things got tough for Cortese.... he left. I'm not using that as a strike against his character. I'm just saying that he may not have been the right person for this next stage of club development. Cortese was maybe not the guy you want when the seas get choppy.

Anyway, IMO we do not need to try to hang on to our top talent at all costs. We need to allocate our resources as efficiently as possible and generate the maximum value from them. Which means, we should have the guts to sell our best talent if the price is right. I seem to have this argument every year with various people here. Selling players is not a lack of ambition. Done correctly, it can be extremely ambitious. You are willing to blow up let's say a top half side and because you are not happy with "top half." You want #1 and the current squad while perfectly decent, might not be able to get you there.

And then you have the fans of Newcastle, Villa and Sunderland - three big clubs - who are presumably jealous of all of us. None of those clubs can be called "modern day, 2015 clubs". Just goes to show how important the people who run football clubs are.

PS. Good post.

 

[San Tejón]

All you need to do now is write the business plan.

Who is aiming for 12th? I liked ISIRTP's comment about no difference in anything from 7th-16th and that we all want to win it but that's just not enough.

I don't understand the accusations of lacking ambition aimed at the club. Run through the accounts and show where the lack of ambition is. Identify how we stop our players leaving. Inthink. You'll find a massive catch 22 if you think about that part.

Interesting that you use Villa as an example.... Ever wondered why they are where they are now? They are a huge club. Massive compared to us. That's how well we've been doing. Why are they where they are now? Why did the owner stop putting his money in? Why did he have to?

You have said you expect the club/fans to aim to be and not be surprised by, reaching Wembley in a cup AND finish 7th and higher, using that as the judgement of the manager. You said call you unrealistic if we like; I think you're unrealsitic, although I do believe that is what the club aim for. The difference may be that they aim for it and you expect it. I believe your expectations are too high. I Want those things, but I don't expect it and that is probably why people like you and I are sat on opposite sides of the fence on a Saturday evening. You're angry when we've lost a game because you expect us to be top 7, whereas I'm only disappointed because I want us to be but then look at what we're up against.

Chelsea
Man Utd
Man City
Arsenal
Tottenham
Liverpool
Newcastle
Aston Villa


To me these are all teams that are much bigger than us. That's 8 teams. Fortunately 2 of those are in a spell of not being able to compete. Any of the others we could lose a player too.

Then you have these:

Sunderland (I nearly put these in the top list as they are much bigger than us)
Everton (could easily argue they should be up top too)
West Ham
Stoke
Leicester
West Brom

These are all similar (ish) size to us and I'd be disappointed if a player wanted to leave us for one of these.

Then there's these, who I think without being disrespectful are smaller than us (maybe some would argue not so).

Palace
Swansea
Watford
Norwich
Bournemouth

So we have 8 teams bigger than us and 6 teams like us which is 14 teams. What do we have, what must we do, to be expecting top 7 amongst that lot? I am not being facetious, I am just putting it down in black and white. Some of those people recruited well this summer (as did some of the ones beneath us), but equally I'm sure a lot of their fans and management would have liked Pelle, Tadic, Bertrand, Forster, van Dijk, Alderwiereld, Clasie, Romeu, Mane.

At the end of the summer, we could argue that maybe we could have recruited better, but most of the people say that now with hindsight - me included. We still have a lot of players recruited who would play in Premier league sides and we can't recruit everyone and we can't get it right every time. We lost some key players but I don't think we could have done much about that. Rickie wouldn't have featured much, Lallana wanted Champions League football as did Morgan. Clyne had a year left and was offered a new deal. Lovren was just going and Chambers was relatively unproven (we maybe could have said no), so the only one for me that may have been different is Shaw and the person we bought in had the season of a lifetime. The one we may have ballsed up on was Toby.

I've gone through all that just trying to piece together the last two and a half years rather than a snap shot of now. We're 12th and not too 7 and have had a bad run barring the Arsenal game.

Do you think we've recruited poorly in the last two summers? We've had some hits and some misses so overall I'd say it's been fair. I can't think of many clubs that haven't had hits and misses - ask Liverpool and United fans! So maybe it's Koeman. Maybe he's rubbish. I struggle with that because he got us 7th last season, a feat I think fairly miraculous, given the circumstances. Now we find ourselves 12th in the league after a poor run. A run that part way through we'd have gone 6th if we'd beaten Villa by hitting just one of those cows' arses with the numerous banjos available that day.

Our footballing life ain't all that bad. Our management of expectations maybe.

There is a chance that maybe, just maybe we are playing to par, as afterall, how do you distinguish who should be where in that middle block of teams I listed above? I allowed for two in the top group to be out of it (Villa and Newcastle) but I didnt allow for any of the last group to exceed expectation. Bear in mind that currently two are (Watford and Palace) and one of them (Swansea) is possibly below par compared to recent seasons.

Every single one of us wants to be doing better and wants us to be winners, but that can't always happen. Sometimes we just need to manage our expectations.

Imagine being one of the top ones and never winning it.... *cough* Arsenal.

My final thought on this, is about the club (by which I think you mean Board/owner). They have taken us from oblivion to 7th in the Premier League. They have appointed a world famous football figure as our manager. They have invested a lot of money and written off a lot of money to get us where we are today. We wouldn't be here now if it wasn't for them (and thanks to Cortese for that), so I have absolutely zero qualms if they choose to be a little bit prudent wih investment via wages and transfer fees. I'll not moan too much of we have a season or two or even three when we finish between 16th and 8th. I like the fact that we have a stable owner although I do have little worries that she may one day have enough and sell us. We may not like what we get. If we are truly to move to the next level then it maybe that we need a new owner and I'm not sure how I would feel about that. Would you like a gazillionaire oil tycoon owning us?

I'd love is to win everything, but won't mind if we don't.

Great post.
You could make an argument for Leeds Utd being amongst the top teams, whilst also pointing out what happens when a club becomes "over ambitious", and gets it wrong.

As I have said before, the Saints have a long term plan to play European football, every season, but unfortunately players only have short term plans, and until/if we achieve the long term plan we will continue to lose our better players to teams above us.
I'm not a fan of forcing players to stay, because their value drops, as they run their contract down, the fans unfairly criticise them for "not trying", plus you could end up with a scenario like at WBA, where Berahino spends most of his time on the bench, when he should be one of the first names on the team sheet.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens to Leicester, at the end of the season.
If they finish in a CL position, I can see Vardy staying, as a repayment of the faith Leicester placed in him, but I can still see them struggling to keep Mahrez and Kante, if "the big teams" come calling, because they will want to improve their chances of reaching the latter stages of the competition.
If they finish in the Europa, or lower, then I think they will struggle to keep any of them.

 

[Missing Lambo]

Good. I hate this stigma that if you vote conservative you are in some way inhuman! Labour are good and just, Tories are cruel, mercenary and heartless. I have lots of friends who vote labour and with that comes a santamonious air that they are helping fellow man. It just so happens that they work in the public sector and that suits their pockets best!
Jeremy Corbyn said he wanted to create a "more equal and fair society". Fair is subjective. Is equal really fair?

First, my remark was a joke. I would happily hound people if they demonstrate a callous disregard for human life, but such people are rare in the whole scheme of things. So it was a joke, and I would have hoped it would have been recognised as such. Thank you for giving me a heads up on this and in future I will ensure that I tag any light hearted remark as **JOKE**

But if you want to get serious ...

Lovelocum, I was not comparing Tory voters to Labour voters. There are good honest people throughout the political world, but the media promote the image of slime-ball politicians. It's not that they don't exist, but they are not representative of politicians as a whole in my experience.

Personally I could no more vote Tory than support Portsmouth. I have friends who do one or the other or even both. I understand and respect the fact that their commitment and passion is as strong as mine, unreformed Marxist Saint that I am.

Finally, take care accusing people of being "santamonious" (sic) then taking a swipe at those who work in the public sector. This is the public sector where the workers are right now providing the health service; where workers are preparing to pick up the reins again and prepare to educate the next generation; where workers are repairing the roads etc etc. This is not a Marxist analysis, it is capitalist logic. In order for capitalism/entrepreneurial spirit to bloom and build the economy there is a need for good infrastructure. A simplistic analysis it may be , but "bosses" need their workers to be healthy, well educated and to be able to travel to their places of work. The state provides these services. Your swipe smacked of sanctimony, which opens you to accusations of hypocrisy. Happy New Year.

 

[Dark Lord SFC]

All you need to do now is write the business plan.

Who is aiming for 12th? I liked ISIRTP's comment about no difference in anything from 7th-16th and that we all want to win it but that's just not enough.

I don't understand the accusations of lacking ambition aimed at the club. Run through the accounts and show where the lack of ambition is. Identify how we stop our players leaving. Inthink. You'll find a massive catch 22 if you think about that part.

Interesting that you use Villa as an example.... Ever wondered why they are where they are now? They are a huge club. Massive compared to us. That's how well we've been doing. Why are they where they are now? Why did the owner stop putting his money in? Why did he have to?

You have said you expect the club/fans to aim to be and not be surprised by, reaching Wembley in a cup AND finish 7th and higher, using that as the judgement of the manager. You said call you unrealistic if we like; I think you're unrealsitic, although I do believe that is what the club aim for. The difference may be that they aim for it and you expect it. I believe your expectations are too high. I Want those things, but I don't expect it and that is probably why people like you and I are sat on opposite sides of the fence on a Saturday evening. You're angry when we've lost a game because you expect us to be top 7, whereas I'm only disappointed because I want us to be but then look at what we're up against.

Chelsea
Man Utd
Man City
Arsenal
Tottenham
Liverpool
Newcastle
Aston Villa


To me these are all teams that are much bigger than us. That's 8 teams. Fortunately 2 of those are in a spell of not being able to compete. Any of the others we could lose a player too.

Then you have these:

Sunderland (I nearly put these in the top list as they are much bigger than us)
Everton (could easily argue they should be up top too)
West Ham
Stoke
Leicester
West Brom

These are all similar (ish) size to us and I'd be disappointed if a player wanted to leave us for one of these.

Then there's these, who I think without being disrespectful are smaller than us (maybe some would argue not so).

Palace
Swansea
Watford
Norwich
Bournemouth

So we have 8 teams bigger than us and 6 teams like us which is 14 teams. What do we have, what must we do, to be expecting top 7 amongst that lot? I am not being facetious, I am just putting it down in black and white. Some of those people recruited well this summer (as did some of the ones beneath us), but equally I'm sure a lot of their fans and management would have liked Pelle, Tadic, Bertrand, Forster, van Dijk, Alderwiereld, Clasie, Romeu, Mane.

At the end of the summer, we could argue that maybe we could have recruited better, but most of the people say that now with hindsight - me included. We still have a lot of players recruited who would play in Premier league sides and we can't recruit everyone and we can't get it right every time. We lost some key players but I don't think we could have done much about that. Rickie wouldn't have featured much, Lallana wanted Champions League football as did Morgan. Clyne had a year left and was offered a new deal. Lovren was just going and Chambers was relatively unproven (we maybe could have said no), so the only one for me that may have been different is Shaw and the person we bought in had the season of a lifetime. The one we may have ballsed up on was Toby.

I've gone through all that just trying to piece together the last two and a half years rather than a snap shot of now. We're 12th and not too 7 and have had a bad run barring the Arsenal game.

Do you think we've recruited poorly in the last two summers? We've had some hits and some misses so overall I'd say it's been fair. I can't think of many clubs that haven't had hits and misses - ask Liverpool and United fans! So maybe it's Koeman. Maybe he's rubbish. I struggle with that because he got us 7th last season, a feat I think fairly miraculous, given the circumstances. Now we find ourselves 12th in the league after a poor run. A run that part way through we'd have gone 6th if we'd beaten Villa by hitting just one of those cows' arses with the numerous banjos available that day.

Our footballing life ain't all that bad. Our management of expectations maybe.

There is a chance that maybe, just maybe we are playing to par, as afterall, how do you distinguish who should be where in that middle block of teams I listed above? I allowed for two in the top group to be out of it (Villa and Newcastle) but I didnt allow for any of the last group to exceed expectation. Bear in mind that currently two are (Watford and Palace) and one of them (Swansea) is possibly below par compared to recent seasons.

Every single one of us wants to be doing better and wants us to be winners, but that can't always happen. Sometimes we just need to manage our expectations.

Imagine being one of the top ones and never winning it.... *cough* Arsenal.

My final thought on this, is about the club (by which I think you mean Board/owner). They have taken us from oblivion to 7th in the Premier League. They have appointed a world famous football figure as our manager. They have invested a lot of money and written off a lot of money to get us where we are today. We wouldn't be here now if it wasn't for them (and thanks to Cortese for that), so I have absolutely zero qualms if they choose to be a little bit prudent wih investment via wages and transfer fees. I'll not moan too much of we have a season or two or even three when we finish between 16th and 8th. I like the fact that we have a stable owner although I do have little worries that she may one day have enough and sell us. We may not like what we get. If we are truly to move to the next level then it maybe that we need a new owner and I'm not sure how I would feel about that. Would you like a gazillionaire oil tycoon owning us?

I'd love is to win everything, but won't mind if we don't.

Very good post and very logical
The trouble is we as fans aren't very logical most of the time as we run on emotion.

PS Thoughts and prayers for your sister and do hope she pulls round real soon