Match Day Thread General matchday thread.

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I've already answered this at least twice.

Very few companies in the world have the sort of liquidity that they can find a billion quid or even a fraction of that down the back of the couch. When Elon Musk bought Twitter, do you think it was all his own money? Of course it wasn't. He fronted a portion himself and the bulk of it he raised from equity funds and banks who saw him and his vision as an investment.

Same with ENIC. They fronted a huge amount of money (iirc circa £230m) on the stadium, then turned to equity funds and banks for the bulk of it.

There is nothing stopping any club or owner doing the same.

Forest could tomorrow put together a proposal to build a new stadium. Their owners do not have enough liquid capital to pay for it up front, so they would also have to approach investors and banks or local authorities for the bulk of the balance. Those investors would then consider the relative risks of loaning a small fortune to a club teetering on the brink of relegation and with a pretty small commercial reach. I'm sure Forest would get the money, but the repayment term would be extremely short and with very high interest so as to protect the risk for the investors. And there is no way Forest could ever be successful enough quickly enough to ever reach those terms. This is exactly what happened to Leicester and exactly what will happen to Everton if they get relegated. Them building a new stadium from a position of extreme weakness is an enormous risk and there is a very strong chance that they will go the same way as Bolton and Sunderland after their construction of new grounds.

There is always a risk. North London could be hit by an asteroid next week and that's the end of that. But ultimately it is up to the investors to assess that risk and reach a conclusion.

This conclusion is the only thing FFP takes into account. So in Tottenham's case, investors looked at a state of the art, multi purpose venue in the capital city that was also the home of a PL ever-present who qualify for Europe most years, and they came to a very generous conclusion:

We will spread repayment across 23 years at appx £30m per year.

From this point on, Spurs are duty bound to add £30m to their annual expenditure sheet. That's the only number FFP cares about.

Is there a chance Spurs at some point in the next 18 years will default on that repayment? Of course there is. But it is infinitesimally small and therefore the various investors didn't pay it much attention.

This is how every investment, indeed the entirety of capitalism, works.

The reason I brought Arsenal into the discussion was to compare risk levels. Despite at the time (and still) being a bigger global brand than Spurs with a larger total fan base and undoubtedly more prominent success (they'd literally just won the PL with the famous Invincibles team), their stadium finances were still considered more risky by investors, since repayments were tied solely to sponsorship, which relies solely on continued success on the pitch.

Had the Emirates also been a state of the art multi purpose venue, which it absolutely isn't, Arsenal would've also secured much more favourable terms and wouldn't have entered the era when selling Henry, Cole, Toure, Van Persie and Fabregas became a necessity because sponsorship wasn't increasing as had been forecast.

I have actually taken the time to read all of that.

Your last point about Arsenal's squad retention being linked to our stadium repayments is true, but demonstrates how many great squads Arsenal have developed. Thankfully now, we aren't constrained by any of that and we can attract some of the best players.
 
Anyway I hope you're all raising a glass to Alf Garnett ahead of tomorrow

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I've already answered this at least twice.

Very few companies in the world have the sort of liquidity that they can find a billion quid or even a fraction of that down the back of the couch. When Elon Musk bought Twitter, do you think it was all his own money? Of course it wasn't. He fronted a portion himself and the bulk of it he raised from equity funds and banks who saw him and his vision as an investment.

Same with ENIC. They fronted a huge amount of money (iirc circa £230m) on the stadium, then turned to equity funds and banks for the bulk of it.

There is nothing stopping any club or owner doing the same.

Forest could tomorrow put together a proposal to build a new stadium. Their owners do not have enough liquid capital to pay for it up front, so they would also have to approach investors and banks or local authorities for the bulk of the balance. Those investors would then consider the relative risks of loaning a small fortune to a club teetering on the brink of relegation and with a pretty small commercial reach. I'm sure Forest would get the money, but the repayment term would be extremely short and with very high interest so as to protect the risk for the investors. And there is no way Forest could ever be successful enough quickly enough to ever reach those terms. This is exactly what happened to Leicester and exactly what will happen to Everton if they get relegated. Them building a new stadium from a position of extreme weakness is an enormous risk and there is a very strong chance that they will go the same way as Bolton and Sunderland after their construction of new grounds.

There is always a risk. North London could be hit by an asteroid next week and that's the end of that. But ultimately it is up to the investors to assess that risk and reach a conclusion.

This conclusion is the only thing FFP takes into account. So in Tottenham's case, investors looked at a state of the art, multi purpose venue in the capital city that was also the home of a PL ever-present who qualify for Europe most years, and they came to a very generous conclusion:

We will spread repayment across 23 years at appx £30m per year.

From this point on, Spurs are duty bound to add £30m to their annual expenditure sheet. That's the only number FFP cares about.

Is there a chance Spurs at some point in the next 18 years will default on that repayment? Of course there is. But it is infinitesimally small and therefore the various investors didn't pay it much attention.

This is how every investment, indeed the entirety of capitalism, works.

The reason I brought Arsenal into the discussion was to compare risk levels. Despite at the time (and still) being a bigger global brand than Spurs with a larger total fan base and undoubtedly more prominent success (they'd literally just won the PL with the famous Invincibles team), their stadium finances were still considered more risky by investors, since repayments were tied solely to sponsorship, which relies solely on continued success on the pitch.

Had the Emirates also been a state of the art multi purpose venue, which it absolutely isn't, Arsenal would've also secured much more favourable terms and wouldn't have entered the era when selling Henry, Cole, Toure, Van Persie and Fabregas became a necessity because sponsorship wasn't increasing as had been forecast.


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That's a lot of effort for somebody who ain't gonna read it <laugh>

<laugh>

You're right I'd forgotten about that problem.

It now makes total sense why despite me writing the same answer in four different ways, brb is still asking the same question. He hasn't read past the first sentence.
 
I have actually taken the time to read all of that.

Your last point about Arsenal's squad retention being linked to our stadium repayments is true, but demonstrates how many great squads Arsenal have developed. Thankfully now, we aren't constrained by any of that and we can attract some of the best players.

The likelihood of your stadium repayments ever being in serious jeopardy was always very small. Being in London helps enormously (whereas Bolton found out that being a suburb of Manchester doesn't), your global profile was huge after the successes of the early Wenger era, and the stadium opened just as social media and broadband internet started to become ubiquitous, which allowed your global reach and fan base to sky rocket.

But there were still visible strains, which led to the need to sell big names and also led to the obsession with top 4, so much so that I think it was Wenger himself who was the first person to compare it to winning a trophy.

But you were never in any serious risks because you built it from a position of tremendous strength, as have Spurs.

Everton is another story entirely and the signs are very worrying indeed.

The fact that construction is well underway but they still haven't actually secured the full amount in costs and are scrambling around cap in hand for upwards of £150m is sheer recklessness.

They went into the build off the back of sustained annual losses and poor league finishes and are therefore building it from a position of extreme weakness. I've seen plenty of analysis that suggests if they get relegated before the stadium is open long enough to at the very least outpace their annual losses, they will be stuck up the proverbial without a canoo, let alone a paddle.

Which is why they are going to have to sell more key players this summer and rely on loans and freebies to keep them in the PL again next year.

They are playing the most dangerous game in modern football and it is the fans who will ultimately suffer if it goes Pete Tong.
 
The likelihood of your stadium repayments ever being in serious jeopardy was always very small. Being in London helps enormously (whereas Bolton found out that being a suburb of Manchester doesn't), your global profile was huge after the successes of the early Wenger era, and the stadium opened just as social media and broadband internet started to become ubiquitous, which allowed your global reach and fan base to sky rocket.

But there were still visible strains, which led to the need to sell big names and also led to the obsession with top 4, so much so that I think it was Wenger himself who was the first person to compare it to winning a trophy.

But you were never in any serious risks because you built it from a position of tremendous strength, as have Spurs.

Everton is another story entirely and the signs are very worrying indeed.

The fact that construction is well underway but they still haven't actually secured the full amount in costs and are scrambling around cap in hand for upwards of £150m is sheer recklessness.

They went into the build off the back of sustained annual losses and poor league finishes and are therefore building it from a position of extreme weakness. I've seen plenty of analysis that suggests if they get relegated before the stadium is open long enough to at the very least outpace their annual losses, they will be stuck up the proverbial without a canoo, let alone a paddle.

Which is why they are going to have to sell more key players this summer and rely on loans and freebies to keep them in the PL again next year.

They are playing the most dangerous game in modern football and it is the fans who will ultimately suffer if it goes Pete Tong.

I read the last one so don't push your luck mate <laugh>
 
You're a Spurs fan. You don't need to.


All you need to know is:

Despite the fact that Daniel Levy has the footballing knowledge of a soft boiled egg, the man is a financial genius.

Most important thing in modern football ... spreadsheets are the new trophies ... what tab are the cheeseroom dimensions on? ... <doh>
 
Most important thing in modern football ... spreadsheets are the new trophies ... what tab are the cheeseroom dimensions on? ... <doh>

Spreadsheets aren't the new trophies.

But they are helpful to avoid points deductions.

Maybe suggest the use of spreadsheets to your owners.

Or even a simple calculator. They can't seem to grasp the fact that 116% is more than what exists in reality.
 
@Citizen Kane....yeah, Wenger held it together during the whole planning and execution of the move from Highbury.

with all of the costs to the squad that came with it