Friedel

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All I can say is that I really tried for a long time to see Gomes' many mistakes as being over-magnified by the fans and the media and to give him his dues. But honestly that time has gone. I cannot help but notice how much more relaxed I am at corners and free kicks now than when I was with Gomes in goal. It wasn't just the goals he conceded - he made a lot of flaps and poor decisions that did not result in goals. Every week.

Friedel every day of every week for me. Any keeper in the Prem is a decent shot-stopper on his day - that's a given. Consistency and reliability in a keeper, however, cannot be over-valued.

Sorry, but even if you think Gomes has been treated unfairly you still have to acknowledge that he has to go. His confidence is gone, confidence IN him has gone...
 
lennypops said:
All I can say is that I really tried for a long time to see Gomes' many mistakes as being over-magnified by the fans and the media and to give him his dues. But honestly that time has gone. I cannot help but notice how much more relaxed I am at corners and free kicks now than when I was with Gomes in goal. It wasn't just the goals he conceded - he made a lot of flaps and poor decisions that did not result in goals. Every week.

Friedel every day of every week for me. Any keeper in the Prem is a decent shot-stopper on his day - that's a given. Consistency and reliability in a keeper, however, cannot be over-valued.

Sorry, but even if you think Gomes has been treated unfairly you still have to acknowledge that he has to go. His confidence is gone, confidence IN him has gone...
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Possibly - but only because people are looking at the wrong thing - On previous history I estimate that over the season Gomes will stop about five goals which Friedel won't get near and make about three errors that Friedel won't. Why do want to be two goals worse off just to feel a bit more relaxed while watching...

My judgement on the numbers above could easily be wrong and I've no difficulty with people telling me they disagree. What I don't uderstand is people wanting to base the decision on who is best on something other than who will concede the fewest goals
 
"What I don't uderstand is people wanting to base the decision on who is best on something other than who will concede the fewest goals"

Because basing judgements on who would cause less to goals to be conceded if the two played the exact same games in parallel universes is pure conjecture. Who knows how many saves Friedel will make (cos he's on the goal-line after a corner instead of caught up in a melee and on his backside) that Gomes wouldn't? Who knows how many more or less goals we'll score with one or the other in goal? *

All these are basically impossible to answer. Has Friedel been opne of the most consistent and capable goalkeepers in the Prem for years? Yes. Has Gomes? No.

I understand the point you're making that Gomes will make saves that Brad won't but we have to judge a player on actual events, actual achievements. Gomes will make many, many errors over a season. I would be amazed if last season he made less than ten silly errors (not all of which led to goals).

The choice of Freidel or Gomes is, for me, absolutely clear as day.


* Not sure how they would affect that but sure they would - shape of team after an opposition attack has broken down, distribution, ability to keep calm possession etc.
 
Schteffen Freund's Top 10 Greatest Goals said:
Friedel was scrambling across the goal to make a point blank save from Ba. It'd have been a brilliant save if he'd kept it out but unfortunately he couldn't on that occassion.

You can't compare that to the reaction to a Gomes clanger where he makes a mess of a routine save. Even against Hearts he looked very edgy flapping all over the place and not holding onto shots. Gomes will save and lose you points but I'd rather go with steady Brad and I think the defenders would too.
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I can compare it to a Gomes 'clanger', cos had Gomes done it, that's exactly how it would have been described by the media. They'd have gone on and on about it, whilst using the chance to bring up some of Gomes' previous mistakes.

I'd rather go with steady Brad too, as I've already said, but it's very noticeable the different treatment the two keepers have had.
 
We'll have to disagree on this, lennypops, but actually everything you've said is a judgement too: Going back to 'facts': which goalkeeper did we have when we came fourth? Which one got through to the CL quarter-finals?
I always prefer the risky option because I think taking reasonable amounts of risk leads to better outcomes on average. But that means I have to be prepared to put up with more mistakes. I know from experience that most people prefer the safer option.
 
Yep - fair enough PS. I have absolutely no problem with risk in many, many areas of life. But goalkeepers are definitely one where risk-taking needs to be very, very well justified. And Gomes hasn't proven that the rewards outweigh the risks for me.

Whilst the media have been unfair to Gomes it's not like they decided by drawing straws which Prem keeper they'd get the knives out for. There is a reason they came to focus on his every mistake. And I'm sure all that extra pressure led into a bit of a spiral for Gomes, confidence-wise. For him that's a shame but Spurs need to move on.
 
The media may not have drawn straws, but many are very ignorant, along with a lot of 'ex-pros' about how foreign keepers play the game. The whole 'punching/catching' issue encapsulates this. I think the media have a built-in bias against keepers who play the way Gomes does. Add in their traditional prejudice against Spurs, and the rest is easy to foretell.
 
I always loved Gomes but rightly or wrongly we now have Friedel,as for who is best that is to diifficult to judge.Gomes did make just too many very costly and high-profile errors last season.I think the main reason Harry has stuck with Friedel is twofold .A.The defence seems far more relaxed and confident in Friedels ability.B.Did Gomes compete hard enough in training to get his place back? From some things i've read i don't think Harry thought he did.
 
Ghoddle10 said:
I can compare it to a Gomes 'clanger', cos had Gomes done it, that's exactly how it would have been described by the media. They'd have gone on and on about it, whilst using the chance to bring up some of Gomes' previous mistakes.

I'd rather go with steady Brad too, as I've already said, but it's very noticeable the different treatment the two keepers have had.
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Sorry mate, thats rubbish, Gomes handling errors on more than one occasion I might add, have come when he's under no pressure at all, stood all on his own with just a ball coming at him...thats just bad handling.
 
PowerSpurs said:
Possibly - but only because people are looking at the wrong thing - On previous history I estimate that over the season Gomes will stop about five goals which Friedel won't get near and make about three errors that Friedel won't. Why do want to be two goals worse off just to feel a bit more relaxed while watching...
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Sorry, i disagree on these numbers. I agree there will be a few that Gomes will save that Brad won't, i'll give you/him that.
I reckon Gomes will make at least 3 more errors directly leading to goals compared to Brad, so they are equal when using just those 2 criteria.
However, i think you have to take into account more than just the errors that lead directly to goals. Gomes, as others have said, will flap and bumble around a LOT more than Brad. Sometimes numerous times per game. While these might not lead to goals directly it will lead to uncertainty in the players in front of him. This causes them to change their game and possibly get caught out while they are trying to "cover" for him.
For me, this has been the cause of our appalling defence of set pieces over the last couple of years. Yeah, we got done by one this weekend but in general its been much improved.
 
Quite surprised at the amount of support if that's the best way to put it Gomes has. Friedel has looked a cut above him in my opinion and while admittedly Gomes will pull off the odd save now and then that Brad/ Carlo and any other keeper for that fact couldn't do, he'd end up making a clanger of some sort to cancel it out.
With Friedel, we have consistency and in fairness, his shot stopping skills aren't too shabby either, the fact he also knows how to catch the ball is quite nice too! :)
The defence seem to have more confidence in him than Gomes which I feel has helped them raise their game and add to the fact the run that the team's on, I wouldn't question anyone's position in the first XI at the moment. 6 wins out of 7, 19 points from 21 games... I take my hat off to Harry and all the players who've contributed to such a fantastic run of games. We haven't tasted a defeat since our second league game of the season... F*cking brilliant form!
 
notsosmartspur said:
Sorry mate, thats rubbish, Gomes handling errors on more than one occasion I might add, have come when he's under no pressure at all, stood all on his own with just a ball coming at him...thats just bad handling.
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Sorry mate, it's you that's talking rubbish. Had Gomes carried Ba's shot over the line the media would have had it down as a 'keeper clnger'.
 
PowerSpurs said:
Gomes takes lots of risks as a keeper so will save more goals and make more mistakes - the only issue for me is the net outcome. The goal yesterday was a case in point. Friedel could see that his path was blocked so stayed on his line and could do nothing about either header. Gomes would likely have come a bit further out and had more chance of getting to the ball before the second header. However if he hadn't got it he would have looked a complete plonker and would get stick from all and sundry. So what Friedel did guaranteed that he couldn't stop the goal but absolved him from blame and what Gomes might have done would have saved a goal about one in three times and got himself dropped two out of three times. So choosing your goalkeeper on the basis of the fewest errors leads to more goals being conceded.....



Getting the right level of risk v reward is very difficult in any sport but measuring people by errors encourages safety first plays which can't be the optimal strategy.
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A very well constructed argument PowerSpurs and it's good to see this kind of lateral thinking on here. However the conclusion I reach from your observation is the one I held in the first place. I would rather have the careful Friedel than the 'cavalier' Gomes because the other factor, and for me the most important, is the effect these different approaches have on our defenders. They want a rock behind them not an earthquake.
 
Ghoddle10 said:
Sorry mate, it's you that's talking rubbish. Had Gomes carried Ba's shot over the line the media would have had it down as a 'keeper clnger'.
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Really, so the whole media and football world are wrong are they, they didn't call it a clanger...because it wasn't. Not one of the hundred or so reporters that watched the game wrote 'clanger', why's that?
 
I agree with LDL - it's so obvious who's the better option that putting down the pros and cons seems a waste of time.

I am VERY happy that Friedel is our keeper and not Gomes. To the point that I can't even believe that Powerspurs is not, in his heart, happy about it too. Arguments, conjectures and everything else aside - it just feels better knowing that a mistake is gonna be a rarity doesn't it? There's a reason for that feeling.
 
notsosmartspur said:
Really, so the whole media and football world are wrong are they, they didn't call it a clanger...because it wasn't. Not one of the hundred or so reporters that watched the game wrote 'clanger', why's that?
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As I keep explaining because it's Friedel who let the goal in. You keep missing the point, I'm not having a go at Friedel, I'm saying if Gomes had let that goal in, it would have been classed as a clanger. Not only that had Ameobi's shot beaten Gomes instead of Friedel while it wouldn't have been classed as a clanger, you'd have had plenty of 'maybe Gomes will look at that and think he might have done better, etc,' especially as Gomes being a better shot stopper than Brad may have got a hand to it and just failed to keep it out.

The media, almost from day one had a witch hunt against Gomes and any mistake was magnified, and even things that weren't mistakes were deemed to be by a media that often displays woeful ignorance about goalkeepers.
 
I see the point you're trying to make Gh, re the media, i don't agree with the example thats all. I've just watched the vid again, Brad was on the near post, and Ba had an open goal, BF got across the goal line and his momentum took him into the goal, so I see no reason why anyone would criticise any keeper, including HG.

The media got into him because they report what they see, he flapped from day one. He drops the ball into his own net unchallenged at a rate of one a season. Madrid at home last season, Fulham away season before that.

The fact we got 4th, is only testament to the 10 outfielders in front of him imo. Yes he made world class saves...so did Robert Green! A professional goalkeeper will make great saves, so I don't see the surprise there, and if it was the only criteria for goalkeeping Gomes would be No.1, unfortunately its not.

I can't believe the thread at all really, its like comparing Bentley with Messi.
 
Fair enough NSS <ok>

I honestly believe the media would have had a go at Gomes over the Toon game had he conceded those two goals, but it's all hypothetical and unprovable.
 
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