Freaks

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Bostonbob

Bostonbob

Well-Known Member
Nov 6, 2012
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The wonderful Vautour and Coneygree have been given the highest ratings for any novice over fences this century.

Absolutely incredible performances. We might be entering a new golden age of chasers.
 
No reason to keep them apart is there Wooly.

The general consensus is that Vautour's performance was better than Sprinter Sacre when he won his Arkle and his race had a hell of a lot of depth to it with grade one winners taking the places and grade two winners following them home. Obviously it's a different kettle of fish running in Arkle's, JLT's, the RSA and then the Gold Cup itself but based on what they've achieved so far, we could be looking at the mother of all races next March.

Coneygree obviously comes with a hell of a health warning attached to him given how much time he's missed thus far in his career, his seemingly brittle legs and that real need for soft ground.
 
I thought it was a pelvic injury Bob. But I don't know how it happened. If it was an accident it's possible he does not have brittle legs. However if it occurred during a race (for example) it would indicate a weakness, in which case I too would be wary. Can you, or anyone, shed any light on the cause of the injury?
 
I think the handicapper always has a tendencie to underrate novice races, so the fact Coneygree won the Gold Cup a seasoned chasers race was always going to get him a huge rating for a novice. Had he run in the RSA and beat Don Poli 6 or 7 lengths, he probably wouldn't have got such a high rating. Despite running to a similar level.

As far as Vautours race that was also a tremendous performance, and for me it was the 2nd best performance by a novice I have seen at the festival.

However nothing compares to Sprinter Sacres Arkle, I suggest you all rewatch his run that day and compare it to Vautours. There was only one horse within 30 lengths of SS and that was the exceptional Cue Card. SS also had the race sewn up coming round the bend, Cue Card only got within 7 lengths because Barry Geraghty was taking things easy. The whip was never used on SS, and he barely come off the bridle. If you compare that to Vautour who was flat out, and whipped numerous times. The race was certainly not sewn up turning in either with plenty of the field within touching distance.

Don't get me wrong I rate Vautour a lot, but comparing his performance to SS Arkle is laughable :biggrin:
 
No it's not Shergar. Not at all. The official line is that it was better than Sprinter's run.

I don't necessarily believe this but there's a hell of an argument to make that Sprinter is a bridle horse. He is wonderful on the bridle but i've never seen him do anything off the bridle.

EOS
 
Sprinter Sacre never needed to come off the bridle, apart from once at Punchestown, after 3 G1s in 5 weeks, but he responded loads when Geraghty asked for more, so he was certainly not a bridle horse. It was just when he was at his best he could win without coming off it. Why make a horse work harder than it has to?

Take Frankel on the flat, if a decent jockey had ridden him, they could have run him every couple of weeks, and won by a couple of lengths hard held on the bit, but instead they allowed Queally to try to kill the poor horse every time it ran.

Barry Geraghty is a class act, and doesn't give horses a harder race than they need. Look at his ride on Peace And Co yesterday, going to the last on the bit and delivering him with perfection. Most other jockeys would have panicked earlier and started riding him, but not Geraghty as he knows how to win on good horses without giving them a hard a race :biggrin:
 
Ron said:
I thought it was a pelvic injury Bob. But I don't know how it happened. If it was an accident it's possible he does not have brittle legs. However if it occurred during a race (for example) it would indicate a weakness, in which case I too would be wary. Can you, or anyone, shed any light on the cause of the injury?
Click to expand...

I can't Ron. I thought it was his legs so i'm definitely not the person to rely on for that info!
 
Coneygree's injury was to one of the muscles at the top of his hind leg. Apparently the vet had never seen a horse injure that muscle before so no one knows how it happened. Took him some time to get over it as well.

From what I read he can be a bit of a nutter and one of the injuries was because he was throwing himself in the air etc. "Lack of self-preservation" I remember coming across as a quote from Sara Bradstock. Also he "can be a bit of an idiot" and "growl like a dog" when he's frustrated another quote from Sara.
 
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Evening, all. Mixture of facts and opinions on the foregoing, as follows:

1. FACT. Coneygree's injury was a leg - specifically, a stress-fracture to his off hind tibia. He subsequently cut a tendon behind, but that seems to have been minor in comparison and more of an annoyance than a worry. I've never seen or heard of his having pelvic problems.

2. OPINIONS. I'm happy, in our present state of knowledge, that Vautour is the real thing and very likely to turn into a monster. Conversely, I'd keep the jury out on Coneygree until we have some clearer grasp of the value of the CGC win. I imagine we'd all agree that the 2014 race has been shown up for the boat race we always thought it probably was, so what we have is a novice in terms of experience (but not of age and physical development - and maybe his injury-related holidays have actually helped him) who's finished several lengths ahead of Djakadam, and of Road to Riches who won a (probably) runofthemill Lexus. Can't resist the feeling that, in the post-Kauto/Denman era, the world is looking for another champion and wish-fulfilment-hoping that the CGC will provide it. It probably won't (Imperial Call ? Long Run ? Bob's Worth ?) and you might begin to wonder if three and a quarter miles over the New Course on spring ground could be so unique a test that it maybe suits the tough all-rounder over the truly gifted champion. So perhaps the Dessies, the Wayward Lads, maybe even Kauto weren't ever able to display their full brilliance in the CGC. I really don't want to disrespect Coneygree - or the Bradstocks - but let's wait and see.

I'm entirely with King Shergar in the Sprinter/Vautour comparison. We can't yet fully assess the depth of this year's JLT, but Vautour never winged fence after fence the way that Sprinter did, and his jockey had to take corrective or positive action more than once. My feeling is that he's a work in progress which, when it's complete, may take our breath away. But not yet.
 
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The Iceman said:
Coneygree's injury was to one of the muscles at the top of his hind leg. Apparently the vet had never seen a horse injure that muscle before so no one knows how it happened. Took him some time to get over it as well.

From what I read he can be a bit of a nutter and one of the injuries was because he was throwing himself in the air etc. "Lack of self-preservation" I remember coming across as a quote from Sara Bradstock. Also he "can be a bit of an idiot" and "growl like a dog" when he's frustrated another quote from Sara.
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Cheers Iceman. It was Wiki where I saw he had a pelvic injury. That was obviously incorrect as this is from the Mark Bradstock web site

Name: Coneygree (GB)

Sire: Karinga Bay

Dam: Plaid Maid (IRE)

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Max, as we know him is a lovely, big horse who at the age of three already looked much stronger than Carruthers. He won impressively at Uttoxeter at the first time of asking and then learnt a lot running in a very competitive Grade One bumper where he was far from disgraced. Having strengthened further over the summer he opened his account over hurdles at the first time of asking in a competitive event at Uttoxeter. He seemed to have improved again for that run and so it was decided that we should try a step up for his next run at Cheltenham. He proved that he was well up to that and won impressively twice before running slightly below his best when beaten by At Fishers Cross and the New One (both Festival winners) at the New Year meeting. He is a horse who needs a lot of work and so he had been more inconvenienced than some by the bad weather over Christmas and we were looking forward to reversing the form at the Festival. Unfortunately, he went lame behind following a particularly brilliant piece of work and although he quite quickly came sound, it was decided that it was much too big a risk to run him. This turned out to hve been an extremely good decision because, after a lot of investigation, a small stress fracture was discovered in his tibia behind. All very disappointing but it is probably no bad thing for him not to have had a hard race at this early stage in his career and it is an injury that has a very good prognosis if found in time so we are all very excited about next year.

Max came back early and was electric in his early work before taking a suicidal leap off the Ridgeway on the way home from the gallops. Paying close attention to the adage that the better the horse the more likely the injury, he managed to land on something at full flexion and cut the back of his back leg badly enough to involve the edge of the tendon. Despite lasers and everything that we could throw at the damage, it has been slow to heal and we have reluctantly decided to give him the year to ensure that he starts next season in perfect condition and gets the whole season as a novice chaser. I think we may have to invent a protective sort of body armour to take him out in as he is terrifyingly exuberant when out of his stable!!!

2014 -2015

Max is back and Max is angry and raring to go. He came back early so that we have plenty of time to strengthen and tone his athletic frame carefully and precisely and is now looking and feeling wonderful. He has also been jumping in the the school and is now in complete control of his long legs. He is now fast and slick and making a great shape jumping poles at speed so we are all waiting with baited breath for some rain that will allow us to get him on the grass and fine tune his preparation for an assault on the leading staying novice chases.
 
I'd add Un de Sceaux into 'freak' category as well. Just rewatched his Arkle, hard to appreciate on course just how fast he sprints up that hill at the end. Once Ruby gets a slap into him he just takes off, hits the line full of it. Some performance for a horse who only run on bogs and was meant to finish legless!
 
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Agreed Beefy, UDS performance was very impressive aswell. His jumping wasn't perfect, but his engine is impressive. If they can improve his jumping he will be impossible to beat over 2 miles. The only horse who I could see giving him a race is Vautour, but I can't see the 2 meeting :biggrin:
 
It will be interesting to see if they run Coneygree again this season what the opposition will do.

Will they allow him to have an uncontested soft lead, so that he can run them into the ground like he did at Cheltenham? I think not. If he goes to Aintree or to Sandown at the end of the season, his inexperienced jockey might be given a little more to think about. That is not to suggest that the horse will not respond to the challenge and prove that he really is an outstanding novice.

Great shame that Lord Oaksey only put a bet on Carruthers as Lady Oaksey would have been brandishing a nice betting slip on Friday when she was interviewed post race.
 
I think I saw an interview with Bradstock where he said Coneygree is done for the season and they want to look at the Hennessey as his first target next season.
 
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