Grand Prix thread Formula 1 Pirelli British Grand Prix 2021

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by ched999uk, Jul 14, 2021.

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Who will win the first race with new Quali format?

Poll closed Jul 16, 2021.
  1. Lewis Hamilton

    4 vote(s)
    44.4%
  2. Max Verstappen

    4 vote(s)
    44.4%
  3. Valtteri Bottas

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Sergio Perez

    1 vote(s)
    11.1%
  5. Lando Norris

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Daniel Ricciardo

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Charles Leclerc

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Carlos Sainz

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Pierre Gasly

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Any other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

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    Reading a bit more about Stewards decision it looks like they don't take into consideration anything before the event or the consequences of the event. Which seems correct to me.
    I think we will have more sparks and hopefully no one hurt. Max will be out for revenge as he see it's Lewis at fault for not getting out of his way. I also think Lewis will continue being as aggressive with Max as he is with him, he has given in way too easily in the past when he was in championship lead and Max wasn't really in contention. Now Max is leading he has to realise that to win takes more than just driving as fast as you can, it takes the mental ability to stay calm and calculate how to win the championship!
    I can see lots more battles with either ending in the gravel. Just pray that no one is hurt. Can you imagine how any normal person would react if Max puts Lewis in hospital!!!! But Horner will just change his tune and say it's not Max's fault.

    I do wonder if there is something in Max personality that can't handle being any way to blame for his actions, so Horner and co do what they do to stop him falling apart?
     
    #361
  2. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Think it's just the way RBR are...
     
    #362
  3. Mark Blow

    Mark Blow Active Member

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    Interesting opinion from James Allison on what the advice was for overtaking at Copse .

    Lewis Hamilton: Penalty for collision with Max Verstappen 'harsh', says Mercedes chief
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57920998
     
    #363
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  4. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    At least it's measured and not banding around insults and fury
     
    #364
  5. Big Ern

    Big Ern Lord, Master, Guru & Emperor

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    of course it's not Max's fault, same as it wasn't when he weaved in Hungary, or when he smashed Ricci off in Hungary, or his late move in Baku, or his swipe on the Monza straight v Bottas at 200+ (which is probably the most dangerous thing I've seen). all of them had the same thing in common, Max going dangerous to not get overtaken. I actually wonder if it's psychological, maybe Jos punished him in private whenever he got overtaken when he was younger.
     
    #365
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  6. eddie_squidd

    eddie_squidd Well-Known Member

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    #366
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  7. Mark Blow

    Mark Blow Active Member

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    The thing I disagree about article is even though the front wing of Hamilton was level or just In front of Max’s front wheels, it doesn’t mention the actions of Max. We’ve seen the video of Hamilton alongside from Max’s perspective and how he was about to turn into the corner, saw Hamilton alongside, corrected left but then turned in hard immediately. From Hamilton’s cockpit video that is seen as Verstappen coming across him and there accident.

    the article says Hamilton washed out into Verstappen because he wasn’t perfect on the apex, but the way Verstappen turned hard in once he knew Hamilton was almost fully alongside, I would say Hamilton never had much chance to washout anywhere because Verstappen decided he was taking the racing line regardless of there being a car next to him or not.

    out of curiosity, what’s the difference between what happened at Copse compared to when Hamilton and Vettel came together at Monza which caused Vettel to spin? Iirc Hamilton wasn’t penalised 2 cars came together and hit each other and one span out?
     
    #367
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  8. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    I've been really unable to tell if Hamilton was on track to get closer to the apex since the collision seems to change his angle and the happens pretty early in to the corner. Could probably debate it for years and never get close to the answer.
     
    #368
  9. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    I don't think he was hitting the apex, as pointed out in the steward's decision - but I'm not sure it matters? As James Allison points out in his interview covered in that BBC piece.

    If you're on the inside, you don't have to hit the apex, in fact we've seen it numerous times (moreso in slower corners), where the driver on the inside has deliberately gone beyond the apex to force their opponent well beyond the racing line. Max himself did it to Leclerc at Austria 2019 as a race winning move. All you're required to do is leave sufficient space on the outside for the opponent to make the corner (something Max frequently doesn't do, see Imola and Spain this year).

    Given Hamilton still made the corner quite comfortably, despite the car being unsettled by the contact, I think I'm fairly confident that there would have been space outside of Hamilton for Verstappen, with Verstappen on the kerb at worst. That's "leaving a space" to me, if slightly complicated by the correction Hamilton had to make to catch the understeer before contact.
     
    #369
  10. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Yeah...just not sure if he would have been as far from it as is suggested.

    The thing for me is that Max may have come out of that ahead had he stayed a little wider.

    Hard to tell what the alternative outcomes may have been.
     
    #370

  11. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

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    Interesting computer reconstruction of the crash plus a previous quali lap added.
     
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  12. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    Really interesting animation, in particular I hadn't realised how far away from the racing line Verstappen was at turn-in.

    The speed of that quali lap car is a bit odd. Surely they weren't carrying the same/more speed into the corner than they would have been on a quali lap, when it's a flat out corner and they had 100 kg of fuel and older tyres?
     
    #372
  13. Mark Blow

    Mark Blow Active Member

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    When you see that video, the driver on the outside knows that the with car on the inside as close as it is and he tries to take the racing line, is there any way of avoiding hit that car on the inside, and as seen by that video, the answer is no, yet the driver on the the outside still does it anyway.
     
    #373
  14. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    That's pretty cool to see like that. Thanks for posting it.

    Not sure it answers a ton, but great to see. :)
     
    #374
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  15. Mr.B

    Mr.B Well-Known Member

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    I agree - great to see. But 'answering' anything is probably asking too much.

    That would need people who are willing to watch objectively and have their opinions changed.
    Plenty of people like that on here, but for most people elsewhere, it will probably just confirm what they already think.

    Science & technology has given us a great deal in recent human history - staggering amounts of highly accurate data. Amazing computer modelling & simulation. Astonishing graphics/animations to help communicate.
    All are powerful tools to help people learn facts and understand the world.
    But as we keep seeing, as powerful as those things are, they're no match for a mind that's already made up.

    Maybe I'm one of those people. Before that animation I thought it was more Max's fault than Lewis's, and I still think that now.
    I guess the proof will come when I'm faced with a video showing that Max isn't an obnoxious spoiled diva, enabled by Draco Malfoy disguised as Christian Horner, and Darth Marko disguised as himself.
     
    #375
  16. eddie_squidd

    eddie_squidd Well-Known Member

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    This is enlightening. Juan Pablo Montoya's view is pretty balanced, and he is one of the few to mention Verstappen's turning right, correcting and then turning right again. In his view Hamilton was fully alongside until he lifted slightly (and probably would have avoided the accident if he had kept his foot in) and that Max turned right onto a line that assumed that Hamilton would not be there, when he was and had every right to be. Full video here:

    https://motorsport.tv/embed/zl7CgAsy-verstappen-v-hamilton-who-was-at-fault
     
    #376
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  17. Justjazz

    Justjazz Well-Known Member

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    Watching the crash again, from the stands at Copse I feel that RBR are reacting in part because Max was clearly shaken. RBR's emotions are running high, they will never fully see this objectively, nor would you expect them too.
    Horner has released a barrage of public racial abuse on Lewis, perhaps inadvertently, and he needs to make a statement to defuse the racial abuse.
    It could have been nasty, thankfully it wasn't, it reminds us that motor racing is a dangerous sport.
    I do see it mostly as a racing incident. I doubt if RBR complain to the FIA it will yield an alternative outcome but maybe RBR need to do this to bring some perspective into how they see this.

    Either Max is going to learn from this or he is going to seek retaliation. If the later, Lewis is too smart to turn in like Max so Max will have to break the guidance to inflict an incident on Lewis, I hope he doesn't attempt that.
    I fear emotions will be running high still at the next race.
     
    #377
  18. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Pretty fair assessment of the whole thing.
     
    #378
  19. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

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    More confusion from FIA:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57933378
    Masi said - over the radio that Toto could go and see stewards if he wanted. Now he says it by invitation only, but didn't he suggest Toto go see them????
    Article also says that as well as Toto visiting stewards during red flat so did Horner!!!! So how can he be winging to press about Toto lobbying stewards when he did same????????? Horner being caught out again.
     
    #379
  20. eddie_squidd

    eddie_squidd Well-Known Member

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    I want some of what Horner has been smoking.
     
    #380
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